This post is my response to a guest commentary piece, written by Pam Ashley, that ran in Alabama’s “The Gadsden Times.” Please read the above link first for the full context…
Dear Pam,
First of all, I’m genuinely sorry to hear about what happened to your Weimaraner, Bleu. That is a tragedy, and a senseless act that certainly could have been avoided, albeit not by anything that you did or didn’t do. By the accounts that I’ve read, you and your family did all that you could do to ensure a safe environment for all. It’s beyond unfortunate that your family was located next to a neighbor that was this irresponsible. It’s also beyond unfortunate that these types of irresponsible people even continue to exist at all. I would give anything to have everyone in this world take responsibility for their actions, to treat others (people and animals) with kindness, to consistently use common sense, to show empathy, to have compassion in their heart. I’d also give anything to have everyone that has a companion animal embrace the fact that that animal should be loved and treated as if it were part of the family. My best bet is that these 2 Pit Bulls were not from this type of environment. That’s unfortunate. The “no remorse” shown by your neighbors seems indicative of this fact. I also realize how unsettling it must be to have a sheriff deputy, followed by the local animal control, claim that they can do “nothing” in response to this fatal attack upon your dog. That is ridiculous, all very much ridiculous. But please continue to hear me out…
The statistics you cite, claiming fatal dog attacks (to people), and showing that a certain amount were perpetrated by Pit Bulls… This total number (from all dog types) is just a handful, per year. I say that not to justify any attack, but to attempt to provide a perspective in regards to how often these things actually happen. According to the HSUS, there is approximately 78 million “owned” dogs in the United States alone. That doesn’t account for the millions of shelter animals (4-5 million are killed each year, close to half of the dogs being Pit Bulls), nor the many that are unregistered and etc… I’d say that it’s certainly not a stretch to then say that at least 5 million of those 78 million are Pit Bulls or Staffordshires. To the average person who will vaguely use “Pit Bull-type” as a phrase, that number probably then doubles, due to the fact that the Pit Bull isn’t even an actual breed of dog. And these are all fairly conservative (Pit Bull-related) estimates mind you… So just to continue to be fair: You are essentially saying that x-amount of Pit Bulls (4? 5? 6?) killed a person during whatever specific year you’d want to cite, without then accounting for the x-amount of Pit Bulls that didn’t. Well, that “didn’t” number is going to astronomically dwarf any number that you can possibly find.
For examples sake: Let’s say that there are 5 million Pit Bulls, and then 10 fatal attacks that you can actually thoroughly cite…
That means that 0.000002% of all Pit Bulls actually killed a person that year.
In turn, that means that 99.999998% of all Pit Bulls DID NOT kill a person that year.
So yes, you’re correct, “statistics do not lie.”
Fatal attacks involving “Pit Bulls” from the years 1979 through 1998 total “66.” In that 19 year window it breaks down to 3.47 “fatalities” per year. Not 34, not 347, but 3(point)47.
You also realize that in the extremely rare event that a dog does actually kill a person, the media has been caught countless times just shamelessly calling that dog a Pit Bull, when in numerous instances it’s later found out to not actually be the case. This is done to drive coverage, to sensationalize the broadcast. I’d hope that that would come as no surprise to you.
Also worth noting… Pit Bulls outnumber German Shepherds and Rottweilers and Chows and Dobermans, the other 4 types commonly cited in “bite” statistics, by a 3-4-5 to 1 ratio. Which then means that these other types infract “more.” So are you in favor of banning them as well? I would assume that you are not, since they weren’t the type that killed your dog, nor do they have websites dedicated to peddling misinformation that defies logic, and all in the name of being hateful.
In regards to your claim that “if provoked for whatever reason, a Pit Bull attacks relentlessly until its victim is dead, unless forced off” … Well, that’s just patently false. Millions of Pit Bulls are “provoked” every single day. “Provoked” could mean anything quite frankly… If what you say is actually true, these landsharks would be killing thousands of animals, as well as thousands of people, PER DAY. Because, as your article states, “they cannot be called off the attack once they’ve started.” So that implies that either the Pit Bull dies (due to being “forced” off, shot, etc.), or the animal or person it is “attacking” dies. So, um, why aren’t we hearing about this kind of thing at the rapid fire pace that your outrageous claims imply?
To your claim about Pit Bulls not being used by law enforcement or the military. Well, first, many are…. But more importantly, the reason why they are not IS NOT because of what you state. You claim that they aren’t used because “they cannot be called off once they’ve started.” Nope. In reality, they aren’t used because they aren’t inherently human aggressive. They are not bred for protection, or to bite and hold, like say, a German Shepherd or a Belgian Shepherd is. And that’s not a knock on German or Belgian Shepherds either, as they are wonderful dogs as well. But Pit Bulls specifically have human aggression purposely, and oftentimes brutally, bred OUT of them. This is done, even by the shadiest character, so that they can continue to be used by scum for dog fighting, without then redirecting and “attacking” their human ring handler.
I don’t mean to get short with you in any way, but some of the things that you’ve said, well, I’ve taken GREAT offense to. You are offending millions of people with your broad-brushing. What you are doing is senselessly piling on, and it’s going to indirectly affect someone else, someone innocent. You state “sterilization should also be a requirement so this breed can die off.” Do you hear yourself? That’s an unbelievably cruel thing to say. If you were my mother I’d be completely embarrassed by your assessment. My mother happens to be a registered nurse, just like you. She also happens to have a Pit Bull that she loves and makes part of her family.
Your argument is essentially to “ban the gun” instead of even remotely attempting to focus on the criminal who used that gun to shoot and kill a person. That’s misguided. That’s not to compare a Pit Bull to a gun, it’s just a visual reality that people can comprehend. If you “ban the gun,” then those criminals will just go and get an ax, or a hunting knife, or a baseball bat, and so on and so forth. What you are knowingly (or unknowingly) contributing to is the placing of blame down upon an entire breed/type (we are talking MILLIONS of dogs!), while allowing the person(s) responsible for the heinous crime to go free and infract again. That makes no sense at all.
I’m white… If an African American or a Hispanic person were to murder my entire family tomorrow, I wouldn’t go to my local paper and call for the immediate demonization of all African American or Hispanic people. You wouldn’t see my face on the news, unfairly (and insanely) stating how “dangerous” they are as a whole. I would never state anything as remotely psychotic as that. I wouldn’t think it privately to myself, not for a second. There would be absolutely none of that at all, whatsoever… Yet with you, that’s what you’ve done here. Do you not see how your response is comparable to this hypothetical example? If you don’t then you’re just a total hypocrite.
You asked me (Pit Bull advocates) to ask myself some questions. Here are the answers…
“Why, specifically, do you want a Pit Bull?” Because they’ve been in my life for over 10 years. My best friend in the world just happened to be one, she was with me for over 8 years. She was extraordinarily special. They are extremely loving, smart, affectionate, loyal, hilarious, good-natured animals.
“What about a Pit Bull is more appealing than adopting any other breed of dog?” Well, what made you adopt/buy a Weimaraner? There’s qualities in each dog, as individuals, that we fall in love with. Dogs are individuals and loving people choose how they choose. I can’t speak for someone that wants to fight them, or treat them like garbage, or not socialize them, or not show them love… But please don’t confuse me with such a person. Please don’t confuse the hundreds of thousands of people that have Pit Bulls as family pets, as such a person. Your vagueness doesn’t fly here. Your text smugness doesn’t fly here. Why do I personally like Pit Bulls going forward? Because I know firsthand what amazing dogs they are. I know firsthand how badly they are stereotyped, and how badly they are treated by certain factions of humanity. I know that there are people like you out there who are trying to spread hate, whether you realize it or not. I will fight that until I’m dead and gone.
“Why don’t you believe the evidence that shows Pit Bulls cannot be called off an attack once it starts?” Because that evidence doesn’t exist. Why don’t you believe the mathematical evidence that unequivocally shows that 99.9% of Pit Bulls living in this country have never killed a person?
“Are you willing to view graphic pictures of people and animals mauled by Pit Bulls and then tell those people that there was about a 48% chance they wouldn’t have been attacked, that they were just unlucky?” You’re sarcasm is unnecessary. Yes, I’m willing to view pictures. No, I wouldn’t have a generic rhetorical response to feed them. Each instance should be looked at and treated on its own merits, and that goes for every incident involving dogs of all breeds.
“Can you visualize your child/neighbor/yourself with arms chewed off, face torn off, neck ripped open, and state with assurance that none of this can happen to you or those close to you in the presence of a Pit Bull?” No, I can’t visualize it because my dogs are responsibly cared for. Your stereotypical, ugly way of framing your language is no better than asking me if I “feel safe around a Muslim.”
“Do you defend Pit Bulls because you have a need to have a cause to argue?” No I don’t. Do you blanketly target Pit Bulls because you’re hateful?
Lastly, I implore you to not turn your pain into ignorance. What happened to your dog, Bleu, was terrible. What you are now doing is equally terrible. You are assisting with an ill-sighted witch hunt, and honestly, you should be completely ashamed of yourself. I’d also ask that you visit your local shelter. Physically find it in your heart to actually meet a few of these “types” of dogs. Not your neighbor’s dogs, just random Pit Bulls. Mix it up a little bit. Maybe then your “one side” will turn into something else.
I’ll leave you with this: “No single, neutered/spayed household pet Pit Bull has ever killed anyone.” ~ Karen Delise, Author of “Fatal Dog Attacks”
Thank you for your time and honest consideration,
Josh Liddy
*****UPDATE*****
It was brought to my attention that Pam Ashley actually came to my page today and posted a comment… So I’d like to update this post with a few of the most disagreeable posts to my letter, along with my responses to them, as well as Pam’s comment and my response back to her. This will provide for a much fuller dialogue and will possibly serve to delve further than the initial letter went. It will also help people follow this communication, as the comment section stacks weird and it’s hard to get a clear read on the back and forth.
From PNB:
This rebuttal is overflowing with fallacies, as are the emotional comments below. Yes, lots of different kinds of dogs can bite, and lots of pit bulls can lead peaceful lives, not ever attacking another dog or a human. The problem is, the way pitbulls have been bred, when they decide to attack, the results are FAR worse than they would be with most other breeds. And even if owners have the best intentions, one misstep like the several examples given in this article, and the result is death for a beloved pet (or person) and trauma for the family. Most of your statistics site the fact that 99% of pitbulls have not killed a person. What about other PETS? I go to the dog park all of the time and, while not scientific, ALMOST EVERY INCIDENT OF ATTACK I have seen has involved a pitbull or pit-mix. And when they attack, the results are often terrible. As far as killing people is concerned, how many breeds do you know of that have more than 0% history of killing people? There are only a few, and the pitbull is one of them. Fact.
In your comparison between banning pitbulls and banning the gun, you say that criminals would just use an axe, or baseball bat. Maybe. But it takes MUCH MORE force and skill to fatally harm someone with an axe, knife or bat than it does a gun. Like I said, other breeds of dogs attack or bite as well, but most breeds do not have the strength, ability, or determination to annihilate as quickly and ferociously as pits do. Fact.
As for your comparisons with this being equivalent to scapegoating a whole race of people because your family gets killed by someone of that race, that is simply apples to oranges. Human beings of different races, while often culturally or even physically dissimilar, are still human beings, with the ability to reason, and have morals, neither of which dogs have. And human beings are not DOMESTICATED ANIMALS BRED FOR SPECIFIC TRAITS. There is absolutely no comparison.
It is sad to think of all of the dogs, pitbulls or otherwise, that are skipped over at the shelter because of fear. What’s even sadder is that human beings created these animals, not nature or god or anything else. Don’t forget, pitbulls are not “natural” animals, they were CREATED BY HUMANS, just like every other dog breed. These are not endangered wild animals that need protection to preserve nature’s course fro human encroachment. This attitude that many pitbull owners have that they are somehow fighting for the underdog is absolutely misguided. You’re actually fighting for an animal that has been bred to have the ability to ruthlessly destroy other living things if it wishes, unlike almost every other dog breed. They don’t have a natural reason to be here, and there are so many other wonderful breeds of dogs, that there really is no reason to continue to allow these potentially lethal animals to continue being bred. Like many other civilized countries, we should outlaw these dogs after the current living ones have passed away, and support and promote the adoption of dogs that provide companionship and love to other dogs and people, without the desire, and more importantly—the ability—to kill.
Response:
Have you ever read Orwell’s 1984? Because you’re a pretty impressive doublespeaker. “Overflowing with fallacies”? Where exactly, unless you are stating that my math was incorrectly done… In which case, please do the equation again and let me know what you come up with.
The reason why I cited the “killing person” numbers, like I did, was because of Pam’s original commentary where she implies that they are people-killers. That’s what’s implied, that’s why I focused there. All dogs can kill another dog. Look to its treatment, look to its environment, look to its socialization, look to its spay/neuter status. This list goes on and on and on…
“What about other pets?” What about them? Many Pit Bulls are dog aggressive, many Pit Bulls are dog selective, many Pit Bulls get along with ALL dogs, many Pit Bulls get along with all dogs and some cats, many Pit Bulls show aggression to all cats. Guess what? Dogs, my friend, are like this… Do you have one? Because it sounds like you have no idea what in the hell you’re talking about. All dogs have these potential characteristics, regardless of breed or type. Your convenient ignoring of the millions of Pit Bulls living happily in homes, as we speak, absolutely crushes any rationale that you pretend to embody.
You want to focus on pet-killing? Okay. What do you have to say about this small snapshot of documented pet-killings, where the perpetrator was another type of dog? »Evidence« Look at that, so unfortunate for your spin session.
How many breeds, throughout the history of time, have actually killed people? Lots. Pit Bulls are one of them. That IS a fact. “One of them,” key phrase.
Your attempt at dismantling my gun comparison. FAIL. How about a machete, or a sledgehammer; a samaurai sword, or a razor-sharp slip wire used to effortlessly slit someone’s throat? How about bleach, or rat poison? Are you in favor of banning them all? It’s intent, not object. Your argument is completely foolish. Are you in favor of banning speech too? This is America, sir. Please tune back into reality.
Regarding the bite comparison: “To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of ‘pounds per square inch’ can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data.” ~ Dr. I. Lerh Brisbin, University of Georgia. So sorry.
Regarding the comparison of discrimination: It’s no different. Dogs are individuals, as are people. You can try to hide behind language, but it’s morally pathetic. Again, FAIL.
To your last paragraph: It is a known fact that all dog breeds originated from the wolf. The anatomy, bone structures, nervous systems and mentalities have all originated from the same place. Your fear mongering is hateful, and again, pathetic.
From anthonyxb:
I appreciate Josh Liddy’s passion and certainly appreciate the love people feel for their pit bulls, I’ve met plenty of pits that are sweet hearts. But, unfortunately, Josh and others are putting their hearts ahead of their heads. The rebuttal is filled with half-truths and non-sequiter responses to the questions that have been posed.
I can perfectly acknowledge that 99+% of pits will not kill a person. But Josh says that as if it responds to the point. It does not. Pits are a small (but growing) portion of the total dog population, but they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of deaths. Josh never responds to that. Even if the total amount of deaths is not great, they simply cannot be dismissed as a non-issue — it’s remarkably insensitive to do so.
Beyond deaths, the issue is that, of course, many attacks don’t result in death but do result in serious injuries.
Josh’s analogy of pits to guns is, ironically, right on. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” is the NRA slogan, and I guess Josh’s analogy is that “Pits don’t kill people, people who don’t train their pits properly kill people.” Well…it isn’t to take the onus off of irresponsible owners, but just as in the absence of a gun a fight is less likely to be deadly, a poorly trained chihuahua will nip obnoxiously while a pit does serious damage. To conflate the two (as a commentator below does) is absurd.
The type of dog is, in short, a relevant variable. To pretend it is not is just silly.
And, last, what about other dogs? It is purely anecdotal, but at dog parks most every fight I see involves a pit bull. My own dog almost died and had 13 stitches when the pit bull living next door (a generally very sweet, well trained pit, by the way, among the fallacies in Josh’s piece is that this is only about irresponsible owners) jumped the fence and attacked her (my dog was 16 years old and pretty much defenseless). I find it odd that supposed dog lovers are arguing about this as if the only thing that matters is attacks on humans. The domination by pit bulls at dog parks in a big city like mine makes it very difficult for those with other dogs to go to dog parks.
Until pit bull owners get their heads out of the sand and realize that pit pulls are different than many other dogs, the issue won’t be dealt with.
Response:
I certainly do respond to to the deaths. What did you read? Any severely dog-aggressive Pit Bull should be dealt with on an individual basis. Any human-aggressive Pit Bull should be dealt with on an individual basis. Guess what? When you replace “Pit Bull” with “dog” all of those statements are still true.
I ask for common sense. I ask for the focus to be put on the ROOT of the problem, not on the dog. Look to its treatment, look to its environment, look to its handlers, look to its socialization, look to its spay/neuter status. This list goes on and on and on…
How can you co-sign my gun example, while still doubling down on the demonization of millions of dogs, as if they were all the same? That’s what’s absurd.
Comparing a Pit Bull to a Chihuahua, in scale of “potential damages,” isn’t really legitimate. I didn’t make that comparison. But I can tally off about 50+ dog breeds that are just as capable of a certain level of harm as any random Pit Bull is. I’m using quotations because, you know, some of y’all obviously worship at the alter of being vague. Most larger breed dogs can “potentially” cause VERY serious harm. That case can always be made, so long as there is examples, which there is (from all kinds). Just ask the French woman who underwent the world’s first “face transplant” after her LAB ate her face in 2005. You deny that and you totally lose any honest credibility. But look at how likely it is, then look at why it was. Those are the only things that should matter. According to the Discovery Channel, “hot dogs” kill 70 people per year. Damn!
Regarding some of your other points: Please read (if you want to) my response to PNB (below), which I just left. It thoroughly addresses your last couple of paragraphs.
From Pam Ashley, 7/15/12:
Since Bleu’s death March 9, 2012, I have become educated about pitbulls, pitbull owners, and the numbers and horrific injuries and deaths by these genetically engineered dogs. To deny the scientific facts regarding their capacity for inflicting gruesome injury is to embrace ignorance with both armst. When my commentary was published, I really only knew what I had researched during a short time on the internet; however, since that time, I’ve been contacted personally by hundreds of victims worldwide who found me through the newspaper articles and wanted to share their pitbull attack horrors. I now know people who have lost children, children’s faces and body parts, pets, livestock and these are not generalized statistics…they are human beings deserving of more than being sacrificed at the altar of pitbull idolatry.
I wrote an e-mail to a newspaper reporter, Robert DeWitt with The Tuscaloosa News, due to a piece he had written about encountering a pitbull mother eating food in his garage and how afraid he was. He published the e-mail as I sent it without editing so very early on after Bleu’s senseless torture and death. The other newspaper commentaries followed.
I was initially shocked at the hatred, anger, discrimination against human beings and their pets, and outright evil launched at me after I realized that two dogs that had been in my yard often for over 2 years, eaten with Bleu, been petted by me and my grandson, and used the same vet we used just torn him apart and left him to die in a blood-sprayed puddle behind one of our barns.
I am not ignorant, uneducated, banned from procreation, less than human or any of the other hate-filled jargon slung at me by the pitbull advocates who profess to be the good owners whose dogs would lick people to death, nanny their children, protect newborns from danger, nurse newborn kittens, be service dogs for the blind/PTSD veterans/deaf or otherwise handicapped, love all tiny animals, save the drowning, protect and serve in the military, and heal the blind…all but the last remark actually posted in response to my commentaries.
I know that pitbulls attack without prior indication of provocation, soundless, relentless, bloody, grotesque, gruesome, meaty mauling, painful, useless, senseless savage brutality…I’ve seen it, I’ve heard about it, I’ve researched it, I HAVE LIVED IT.
If pitbull advocates want to change the image their dogs are creating for themselves every single day, every single day, every single day…then start by monitoring the pitbull rescues for problematic dogs, monitoring potential pitbull owners, neutering all pitbulls, requiring muzzling while on wrist-strapped leashes so if the pit bolts after another animal the owner has to follow, requiring 8 foot fencing for all pitbulls, requiring double entrance doors into homes with pits to prevent bolting into street when door is opened, requiring liability insurance to cover injuries for pitbull attack victims, and blaming the damn breed for doing what they have been bred to do for generations. If pitbull owners do not understand genetics, then they should sign up for a couple of college courses on the subject so they will realize how ignorant they are when posting statements that educated people are reading.
My Bleu was a beautiful, gentle, neutered dog killed in my yard by a neighbor’s American bulldog and a pitbull, but he was a dog, a dog, just a dog. I grieved his death and how he died, but he was a dog just like pitbull owners need to know that they have a dog, just a dog. It is the human victims attacked daily and killed often that should be protected from the stupidity of blind pitbull defense. Innocent pets, like Bleu, should not be sacrificed to pitbull worship either, but people suffered horrendous, life-changing attacks because of A DOG!
The lack of conscience, the defense of defenseless attack, the excuses for a mutated breed, the blaming of the victims, the myths and lies often quoted do not support pitbulls in any way. These things only make the real problem worse by letting those who are mutilated and affected by the deaths know there is a real evil presence in the pitbull community who relish in the torture and death of others.
Deny this??? Prove it!!!
Response:
Pam (if this is really you), It’s sad that you opted to come and post here, but yet didn’t reference or focus your response towards anything that I actually said. Literally anything.
My response to your piece was not “blind defense,” nor was it “worship,” nor was it “idoltry.” You cop-out really quick when confronted with rational dialogue. What I’ve said here in response to your op-ed wasn’t a pack of “myths” or a pack of “lies.” But that’s all that you’re clearly set on acknowledging them as, as you apparently have no way to respond to what I’ve said outside of just vaguely doubling down on broad-brushing hate.
You talk about those that are “innocent,” yet have no regard for any dog that resembles a Pit Bull and that also happens to be innocent themselves. Their innocence doesn’t matter to you.
I have no idea what types of comments (as a whole) you’ve received from the “Pit Bull community” as you like to say, but I can’t be held accountable for anyone else’s actions outside of my own. I certainly never “blamed the victim,” I actually started my letter by apologizing to the victim for their loss. If you are actually implying that I’m part of this “real evil presence that relishes in the torture and death of others,” well, then you’re so beyond rational and sane that I won’t even bother going forward with you…
You’re acting like a compartmentalized person who thinks that large groups should be punished for the actions of the few, and with no regard to the individual. That is dangerous, not my dog.
Again, either respond to what I’ve personally said here or just don’t bother to post… After all, this started as a letter addressed to YOU. I’ve clearly seen your initial stance, and now also know that it hasn’t evolved at all, which is fine, but just don’t come on here acting like you’re actually addressing me. In reality, all that you’re doing is evading, spreading rubbish, and glorifying misinformation while in the same breath vaguely talking about my so-called “misinformation” and failing to respond to any of it.
In the ironic twist of the century, attached to Pam’s comment was a link to her Facebook page… Upon landing there I was greeted with this quote:
Wow.
Lastly, Pam’s now begun filling the comment section with an eyes-covered and ears-plugged, retreaded version of her initial stance. Okay. I see where this is going and where it’s not going… I’m going to end here:
Weimaraner (the same type of dog as Pam’s dog, Bleu) mauls and kills a child in Florida
Now, by Pam’s own logic, Weimaraners must then be banned as well. Right?
In all seriousness: I wonder that if Pam were a Florida resident, and they enacted a ban in response to this tragedy, if she would have then been okay with turning Bleu over to the authorities once a court of law visually established him as fitting a mold that represented a Weimaraner… Pam? Because, as the link shows, they too are clearly capable of inflicting horrific damage upon human flesh.
Going further, in the words of 20+ year Weimaraner-vet, Gina Grissom, “Weims can and do kill small fuzzy critters.” Inconvenient much? Going even further, Weimaraner Addict sources their ancestry and details how after WWII, “The Weimaraner was further refined to not only track game, but to kill it as well. This further strengthened the Weimaraner’s desire to chase down small critters and kill them.” No!! Hunting? A dog with prey drive? Wild. YourPureBredPuppy.com notes that Weimaraners are usually, “Dominant with other dogs, predatory toward small animals.” They continue, “A novice with little time and space will find him a rambunctious bully, difficult to control.” Uh oh. When speaking in regards to animal aggression they say, “Many Weimaraners are dominant or aggressive toward other dogs of the same sex. Many have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures, including livestock and wildlife such as deer. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.” You don’t say? Btw, PAY EXTRA CLOSE ATTENTION TO THAT LAST SENTENCE! Relevant much?
To close, much of my included commentary in this last section was obvious sarcasm. That’s my attempt at speaking Pam’s level of crazy. I certainly do not condone banning Weimaraners, or any other breed for that matter. Nor am I trying to single Weimaraners out, or negatively stereotype them in any way, as most large breed dogs have these types of similar backgrounds and capabilities when placed in irresponsible hands. I’m merely trying to relate to Pam, through her tunneled way of thinking. That means taking the time to speak in the format that she’s used to speaking in. Me turning it around effectively serves to show the massiveness of the flaw in her narrative, which in turn lays her hypocrisy pretty bare. That’s it.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. As a former pit bull hater myself, I have been reformed by a dog named Bailey and her two puppies who I fostered rather reluctantly for a local dog rescue I foster for. I then did my own research about the breed, and found that in 80% of dog attacks identified as pit bulls, they were later found not to be but this fact was never corrected in the media afterwards. I also found that in all of the documented cases in 2010 that the pit bulls were living their lives on a chain or in pens with little human contact, and in almost every case, severe neglect of basic needs (feeding, water, shelter) as well as medical needs. I have become an advocate myself and try hard to tell others as much as I can that they have been duped by the media again. I hope that you continue your work, I follow your posts on FB all the time and am continuously inspired by what you have done, and continue to do, for these gentle giants. My 9 year old twin daughters can attest to the fact that they only attacks they ever suffered by Bailey was of the face licking kind.
Josh, I’m clapping hands for you!!! Totally agree with your text!! This woman is completely out of her mind. I have the most sweet pitbull that I ever see, I am a dog groomer and was bite around 4 times, all by poodles, Pomeranians and cocker spaniels!!!
@Andreaabarbosa
Josh,
I applaud your thoughtful, well reasoned response. Reading your article makes me proud of you! I don’t, though, think that Pam is ‘out of her mind’ as the previous comment stated. I think that she is just speaking out of pain and fear–understandable considering what happened to her beloved dog, Bleu. Anyone who is a dog lover and owner knows that to lose their dog is akin to losing a best friend and family member. And to lose that family member is such a graphic and violent way must insight an even deeper sorrow, anger and devastation. I can empathize with her loss and her extreme reaction.
That being said, Josh, I thank you for your rebuttal. I think it is important that both sides and the statistics are well represented and that skewed versions of the truth not be left to hang in the arena of public opintion to sway people who don’t bother or care to see the other side. I think that grief lends itself to pointing the finger and needing to place blame somewhere in order for the pain to make sense. And sometimes, as in this case, the blame is grossly misplaced. Thank you again, Josh, for your response and thank you for always being Sway’s advocate.
Thank you for your wonderful response! Yesterday I posted pictures of my pit playing with an 10 week old poodle. I left a comment: I explained the above, and then stated: how many people do you know who would have to call their neighbor and say “Barbara, can you send Corky home?’ When they first found out she was a pit, they were terrified, more so for their children. However, all that changed when they met her. She literally went across my back yard everyday (at 3:30 pm), they would let her in the house and give her left-overs from the night before! They loved her. Corky never had any formal training; however, she knew all commends: sit, stay, come, down, along with speak, roll-over, give me 5 and 10. She taught herself the commend: Corky you stink, you need a bath- with that, she would put her head down and walk to the bathroom and get into the tub! She also knew what “time to earn your keep” – my dad own a business, and she went with me.. Everyone who met her, felt the same way about her! She was amazing. Pit Bulls are not mean, nor bad; it’s the owners. I lost Corky to cancer (I did not let her suffer). She’s been gone now for 11 years, and I have finally decided to get another one.I have waited this long, because I was not ready. I was afraid that if I got another Pit, that I might compare them to her. I have owned small, medium, and large dogs: purebreds, and mixed (all adopted) – and have loved them all – however, there is a spot in my heart for pits that will always be there!
Thanks for taking a stand, and trying to set the record straight. L
Luv the article – I have to add – we too own a pittie, pittie mix and two other type dogs. I was babysitting a 13 month old and they had a weimaraner and he was going to go after the little one, I step in and I am the one who got bit, also been bit by a daushound. I truely am sorry for what happened to Bleu, no animal deserves that, but what she did was wrong, wrong, wrong. Some people don’t get it, don’t want to get it and don’t care. Thank God for those of us who are responsible and care!
Josh, I believe you should submit your article to the Gadsden Newspaper as a rebuttal to Pam’s article. I doubt she’ll read it, because I doubt she’s read any of the online comments regarding her ‘Guest Commentary’ article. But for those who read her misguided article, they are likely to read yours out of curiosity and might actually learn something. Just a suggestion.
This is an amazing response to a woman who, undoubtedly, is hurting. I truly feel so sorry that she lost her beloved pet. It’s a tragedy that should never have happened.
But to slander ALL pit bull-type dogs because of the irresponsible behavior of her neighbors? Unfair. Inaccurate. Hurtful to bully breeds, and disheartening to those of us who work so hard to show what incredible dogs they are.
I must commend the media, though. They do such a fantastic job of chasing down stories that will give them “the most bang for their buck”. Let a cocker spaniel bite a child (such as an incident that occurred in my neighborhood), and no one ever hears about it. But let a pit bull-type dog knock a child down while playing, and suddenly it’s a “vicious attack”. If the TV networks and newspapers would stop putting such a slant on every pit bull story, it’d sure make the job of pit bull advocates a lot easier!
Chrissy
http://www.TheLazyPitBull.com
I am sorry to hear this woman lost her beloved dog in such a horrible way.
Thank for your well written, intelligent rebuttal. I did read her article and I don’t know if I could have stated my case as well as you have. We’ve got a “stray who stayed” american bulldog/ lab mix that looks mostly “pit bull” with really long legs. I may be biased, but out of our four dogs, he has the best disposition of any dog I’ve ever met. He is in agility and obedience training and our goal is to pass the GCG exam. His focus and desire to please never fails to amaze me and everyone else who watches him work. I tell people both ends of him are “dangerous” you’ll either get licked to death or bruised from his ever wagging tail and butt. I’ve been given the best advice that I have reused alot lately. You can’t base your assumptions and pass judgements on a dog based on it’s breed alone, you need to look at every dog separately.
Thank you so much for this articulate, clear, and level-headed response to someone who, in their pain, has been blinded to what’s morally and ethically right. To blame a whole breed is madness, equal to hating an entire race, and history has shown us the deplorable way people act in the name of such hate. My hope is your words reach her and force her to take an honest look at her actions. She should be ashamed and be willing to admit it-we’re all human and make mistakes, and the only thing that would make it unforgivable is if she continued her campaign of hate against innocent animals.
Extremely well written! I am in 100% agreement with all of your statements. We must STOP the fear mongering over this breed and instead take a moment to look at the owners. I absolutely love “the gun” analogy used for understanding. I do not own a pit bull, I own a mastiff, who is 7 months old and runs daily with her best friend that is a pit bull. Take a moment to consider that all breeds from Chihuahua to St. Bernard have the ability to bite…all BREEDS…let us stop stereotyping due to breed and instead chose education and understanding over IGNORANCE!
very well said. I agree with you 100%. Although i will say one thing in defense of this woman who lost her dog to such a vicious attack. Deep down i can understand why she wrote what she wrote. While I dont think she should be generalizing i can understand it is coming from grief and fear. hopefully after she has had time to grieve she will think about all you have said. i do think however that she is human and the image of her poor dog ripped to shreads will haunt her forever. This I fear is a lose lose situation for all involved. such a shame……….
Josh Liddy, you are wonderful. So sorry about Bleu but the OWNERS of the dogs that did attack are responsible. Like you said for every one “bad”, mistreated, abused pitbull that does attack, 10,000 don’t. This stereotype is antiquated and needs to end.
Sadly many will side with this woman. What happened to her dog was very unfortunate, however an entire breed should never be blamed for what 2 dogs have done. When I was younger a Weimeriener tried to bite me. I certainly did not blame the entire breed for that one dog’s action. It is sheer ignorance to do so, any type of profiling is ignorant be it human or animal.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I have a Weimeriener( I adopted wih her brother because they were co-dependent), a Pit (adopted after being brutally abused), and a mutt (someone left on my dor step)…they all get along just fine, and I will tell you this when my boy weimie died I was so worried I would lose my girl too, but since I had my pit and mutt she wasn’t as sad that her brother was gone. My pit and mutt slept with her every night to make sure she was alright. I agree 100% that it is ALL the owners fault. I am sorry for her loss and the way it happened, but needless to say it is all in how any dog is raised and treated by their human’s. My pit is the biggest cuddle baby and loyal. Stop the ignoance already. I have been bitten by a german shepherd, a chihuahua, and a lab…I don’t blame the breeds for the action, I blame the human who didn’t pay attention. People need to take responsibility for their pets PERIOD. Ms. Pam my quetion to you is this after you morn your loss…Have you seen the abuse that pit bulls go through on a daily basis? Oh wait probably not because the news doesn’t think that note-worthy…check out My Pitbull Passion on facebook if you dare to look. some teens setting to pits on fire just because it was fun, or a pit being dragged behind a vehicle, or a guy pissed off at his girlfreind throwing a pit off a 3 story balcony….hmmmmm…was that justice, was that humane? Again owners are to blame for a lot a ANY dog’s behavior.
Loved your very level headed reply. I know I wouldn’t have been able to keep my cool. I want to but attacks on Pits like hers makes me so angry. There are so many absolutely wrong statements it isn’t even funny. While I can totally understand her pain in loosing her dog and in such a horrific way, I don’t think it justifies her demonizing the entire “breed”. I so wish people would start to look at the other end of the leash, the end where the human is located, rather than the end with the dog.
Well really I just wanted to thank you for a wonderful reply.
Thank you so much, Josh Liddy, for your eloquent response to Pam Ashley’s venomous hate mail. Your letter was completely worthy of the breed you defend. I had to call my Pit Bull and Pit Bull mix over to hold them while I read Pam Ashley’s hurtful piece. I got my first Pit Bull because it was a puppy not being cared for that needed a home. Only afterward did I do my research and realize what I had taken on and I haven’t regretted it for one minute! My dogs are a wonderful pets and I love them more than words can say!
This rebuttal is overflowing with fallacies, as are the emotional comments below. Yes, lots of different kinds of dogs can bite, and lots of pit bulls can lead peaceful lives, not ever attacking another dog or a human. The problem is, the way pitbulls have been bred, when they decide to attack, the results are FAR worse than they would be with most other breeds. And even if owners have the best intentions, one misstep like the several examples given in this article, and the result is death for a beloved pet (or person) and trauma for the family. Most of your statistics site the fact that 99% of pitbulls have not killed a person. What about other PETS? I go to the dog park all of the time and, while not scientific, ALMOST EVERY INCIDENT OF ATTACK I have seen has involved a pitbull or pit-mix. And when they attack, the results are often terrible. As far as killing people is concerned, how many breeds do you know of that have more than 0% history of killing people? There are only a few, and the pitbull is one of them. Fact.
In your comparison between banning pitbulls and banning the gun, you say that criminals would just use an axe, or baseball bat. Maybe. But it takes MUCH MORE force and skill to fatally harm someone with an axe, knife or bat than it does a gun. Like I said, other breeds of dogs attack or bite as well, but most breeds do not have the strength, ability, or determination to annihilate as quickly and ferociously as pits do. Fact.
As for your comparisons with this being equivalent to scapegoating a whole race of people because your family gets killed by someone of that race, that is simply apples to oranges. Human beings of different races, while often culturally or even physically dissimilar, are still human beings, with the ability to reason, and have morals, neither of which dogs have. And human beings are not DOMESTICATED ANIMALS BRED FOR SPECIFIC TRAITS. There is absolutely no comparison.
It is sad to think of all of the dogs, pitbulls or otherwise, that are skipped over at the shelter because of fear. What’s even sadder is that human beings created these animals, not nature or god or anything else. Don’t forget, pitbulls are not “natural” animals, they were CREATED BY HUMANS, just like every other dog breed. These are not endangered wild animals that need protection to preserve nature’s course fro human encroachment. This attitude that many pitbull owners have that they are somehow fighting for the underdog is absolutely misguided. You’re actually fighting for an animal that has been bred to have the ability to ruthlessly destroy other living things if it wishes, unlike almost every other dog breed. They don’t have a natural reason to be here, and there are so many other wonderful breeds of dogs, that there really is no reason to continue to allow these potentially lethal animals to continue being bred. Like many other civilized countries, we should outlaw these dogs after the current living ones have passed away, and support and promote the adoption of dogs that provide companionship and love to other dogs and people, without the desire, and more importantly—the ability—to kill.
@PNB You are entitled to your opinion as everyone else…but I honestly don’t know where you came up with some of the things you said. I am pit owner and I don’t like a couple of things that you said, and I have taken into consideration that maybe something bad happened with you and a pit. I will say that not everyone should own a pit, because they are “special”.
you commented: “Human beings of different races, while often culturally or even physically dissimilar, are still human beings, with the ability to reason, and have morals, neither of which dogs have. And human beings are not DOMESTICATED ANIMALS BRED FOR SPECIFIC TRAITS. There is absolutely no comparison.” My opinion: you are totally wrong, I have seen plenty of human beings that do not have the ability to reason or have morals (thieves, murders, gangs, most teens now days, etc.) or do you live in Mayberry? As for Bred for specific strait, ummmm seriously, depends mostly on how that Human was raised.
Your opinion “This attitude that many pitbull owners have that they are somehow fighting for the underdog is absolutely misguided…They don’t have a natural reason to be here, and there are so many other wonderful breeds of dogs, that there really is no reason to continue to allow these potentially lethal animals to continue being bred…Like many other civilized countries, we should outlaw these dogs after the current living ones have passed away…” My opinion: I had to read this paragraph a couple of times, you know what the definition of “civilized” is right? Just in case: Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable…I don’t feel you are being very reasonable or humane. Pits whether human made or not have as much right to live as you or any animal. A lion is dangerous and can kill, but no one is saying kill all the lions off…
Your opinion: ” support and promote the adoption of dogs that provide companionship and love to other dogs and people” My opinion: I agree with this, I have adopted all my dogs since I was 23…my pit is MY companion, and he loves my other 2 dogs, and if I introduce him to someone, he sniffs them and then licks them…
@TraciBrunnemann @PNB
Traci,
Thanks for your response. I live in LA, about as far from “Mayberry” as you can get!
To your first point: I said that all humans are capable of reason and morality, not that all humans practice either or both in everything they do. Dogs are not capable of either, though they are capable of many other things. As far as animals that have been bred for a certain trait, I guess you could argue that certain people can make choices in who they breed with in order to keep certain traits like race, etc., but there is not one person or group of people “breeding” people to have certain traits, etc. At least I hope not.
I do know what civilized means. And I didn’t say that living pitbulls have any less reason to live than any other living thing. I don’t condone euthanizing pitbulls. What I do condone is eliminating the species, that is, not letting pitbulls breed, and letting the breed die out over time, then outlawing them so that anyone who violates the law is prosecuted.
About lions: I addressed this specifically. Wild animals are totally different. They are naturally created through evolution on this planet, serving a very specific purpose in their ecosystem. All wild animals should be protected. Pitbulls are not wild animals, they are a breed of dog that was created by human beings, and they can be eliminated by human beings simply by not continuing the process of breeding them.
If I was to breed a dog that sometimes, but rarely, ate human babies, and, sometimes, but rarely, killed people with long hair, and over the years there were a million people who grew to love this dog because it had other traits that they were fond of, would that be okay? I bet if you had long hair and lived next door to one you wouldn’t think so.
I understand that people love their dogs, as I do mine. And some of those dogs are pitbulls. But as you stated in your response to Anthony, you acknowledge that pits are aggressive by nature, and when in a confrontation with another dog or person, have the physical ability to inflict grave harm in seconds, which many other breeds do not have. Don’t you see how this creates a threat to other people and dogs? Even with your responsible and thoughtful good intentions, which I can sense though your postings, one simple mistake (the dog chews through its leash, jumps a fence, gets startled, etc) can lead to tremendously horrible consequences with pitbulls (as well as Rottweilers and a few others), whereas with many breeds, the worst that can happen is far, far less. That alone is reason to eliminate the breed, as they are a latent danger to society.
As far as my interactions with pits: I have always believed this way, but kept an open mind when I rescued a small/medium sized terrier mix and started taking him to the dog park every day. I do love dogs, and try not to be prejudiced when I see a pit. My dog has been attacked twice. Once by a german shepherd on the street that the owner had off leash, and once by a pit mix, at the dog park. The pit attacked for no reason at all, and was choking my dog’s throat. I beat the pit’s skull with my cell phone as hard as I could, trying to stop it, while pulling it off my dog, but it was trying to cling to my dog’s throat ( I have been to the dog park an average of 3 times a week for 2 years and have NEVER seen another breed do that). I kept beating the dog and somehow I was able to separate it from my dog, the owners finally showed up and pulled their dog away but it was still in the throws of its madness, and it lunged out of their grip and back at my dog, repeating the same action, so I beat the sh*t out of it again, trying to kill it, and eventually it released my dog, who was traumatized (he’s ok now). NO ONE should have to go through that. Pit owners can say all they want about their favorite breed, but go to any dog park in America and talk to dog lovers there with no agenda, and I guarantee you will find many people who have had near-death or worse run-ins with one breed: the pitbull, followed by Rottweilers and German Shephards. It’s a fact. Even if these dogs didn’t snap and attack more than other breeds (which they do), the fact is that they are disproportionately stronger than most other breeds and therefore are a very serious public danger.
@TraciBrunnemann
•eliminating the breed, not species
Let me start by saying that from dog owner to dog owner, i am sorry to hear that your dog was attacked. And you are right, that no one should have to go through that. But I strongly resent your statement that pitbulls, rotties etc.. are a “very serious public danger” I am a pitbull and rottweiler owner. And I love my dogs. I am also a mother of 3 children. Do I think my dogs would ever attack my children….no. Would I ever leave my children alone with my dogs…absolutely not. Are my dogs ok with other dogs? yes. Do I take them to off leash dog parks to run and frolic with the pomeranians? heck no! Why? Because I am a responsible dog owner. As much as I love and trust that nothing would ever happen to my kids,or the pomeranians, I still remember that they are dogs and dogs bite. Pitbulls, labs, retrievers, little fluff ball dogs, they ALL bite. And yes, I am not denying that my pitbull would do a hell of alot more damage than the little fluff ball. But when you have a dog like the pitties and the rotties, and you do your research and know what you are dealing with, you learn very quickly that when you do not set your dog up for failures…like magic… they don’t happen! When you exercise, and train, and supervise, and avoid situations, you can have a wonderful, loving,well behaved, loyal pit. I understand that pitbulls are not for everyone. And I am not here to lay down fact after fact about the great things that pitbulls can do, and give statistics about those scenerios. But what I am appealing to, is that having a pitbull and a rottweiler is my choice. When people like you spew hateful things like ” how that breed should be eliminated” you are attempting to make MY choices. Like millions of other pitbull owners, my dogs have NEVER done anything wrong to any human, dog, cat, mouse etc… Do not blame MY dogs on other peoples irresponsibility! I love my pitbull and my rottie, and I am very sorry for your ignorance to the breed(s). If you never want to experience the wiggly, goofy love of a pitbull….that is your loss. But please do not attempt to make it mine!
@packisburg Well said!
@PNB I can respect the way you feel and I understand why, but an animal is an animal and no matter how domesticated they are incidents can happen, because even domesticated animals still have the “survival” instinct that is in all wild animals.
As for your comment: “If I was to breed a dog that sometimes, but rarely, ate human babies, and, sometimes, but rarely, killed people with long hair, and over the years there were a million people who grew to love this dog because it had other traits that they were fond of, would that be okay? I bet if you had long hair and lived next door to one you wouldn’t think so.” My answer to this: I’m a country/beach girl— raised on the Texas coast independent, subborn, with love for ALL animals wild or domestic, and I have respect for all animals and nature in general. Where I’m from I was raised in how to deal with all kinds of animals (cows, horses, chickens, dogs, cats, rattlesnakes, cotton mouths, gators, wild hogs, even a couple of lions my neighbor had, wolves, coyotes sharks, sting rays, jellyfish…and the list goes on) In saying that, I have hair down to my butt, and it wouldn’t bother me one bit to have such an animal live next to me, and I’m being 100% honest. Don’t miss understand this next comment, but I know how to defend myself, and if it came down to it I would do what is necessary. I never said I didn’t believe in putting an animal down when the threat is true…but just the “bad apple” not the whole breed.
I’m sorry for what you have gone through in your experience with a pit, but it sounds to me that the “owners” weren’t paying attention, and is one reason you went through what you did.
@packisburg Well said…that what I was trying to say myself! Thanks
@TraciBrunnemann Just ignore pnb he/she is the type of person who goes on these sites just to start crap, he/she is probably a vick lover too….they have no clue, so don’t bother with them….
@PNB Go here and see what uneducated SCUM does to a pit bull, http://links.causes.com/s/clClID OPEN YOUR EYES!!!! This type of shit happens everyday all day long, is this right?????? I dont’ think so – educate yourself before you talk out your butt!!!!
@PNB why are you projecting? why all the emotion? please go educate yourself…you won’t come across so ignorantly…maybe consult an animal behaviorist…they will set you on the straight path of truth.
@PNB Have you ever read Orwell’s 1984? Because you’re a pretty impressive doublespeaker.
“Overflowing with fallacies”? Where exactly, unless you are stating that my math was incorrectly done… In which case, please do the equation again and let me know what YOU come up with.
The reason why I cited the “killing person” numbers, like I did, was because of Pam’s original commentary where she implies that they are people-killers. That’s what’s implied, that’s why I focused there. All dogs can kill another dog. Look to its treatment, look to its environment, look to its socialization, look to its spay/neuter status. This list goes on and on and on…
“What about other pets?” What about them? Many Pit Bulls are dog aggressive, many Pit Bulls are dog selective, many Pit Bulls get along with ALL dogs, many Pit Bulls get along with all dogs and some cats, many Pit Bulls show aggression to all cats. Guess what? Dogs, my friend, are like this… Do you have one? Because it sounds like you have no idea what in the hell you’re talking about. All dogs have these potential characteristics, regardless of breed or type. Your convenient ignoring of the millions of Pit Bulls living happily in homes, as we speak, absolutely crushes any rationale that you pretend to embody.
You want to focus on pet-killing? Okay. What do you have to say about this small snapshot of documented pet-killings, where the perpetrator was another type of dog?
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm
Look at that, so unfortunate for your spin session.
How many breeds, throughout the history of time, have actually killed people? Lots. Pit Bulls are one of them. That IS a fact. “One of them,” key phrase.
Your attempt at dismantling my gun comparison. FAIL. How about a machete, or a sledgehammer; a samaurai sword, or a razor-sharp slip wire used to effortlessly slit someone’s throat? How about bleach, or rat poison? Are you in favor of banning them all? It’s intent, not object. Your argument is completely foolish. Are you in favor of banning speech too? This is America, sir. Please tune back into reality.
Regarding the bite comparison:
“To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of ‘pounds per square inch’ can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data.” ~ Dr. I. Lerh Brisbin, University of Georgia.
So sorry.
Regarding the comparison of discrimination. It’s no different. Dogs are individuals, as are people. You can try to hide behind language, but it’s morally pathetic. Again, FAIL.
To your last paragraph: It is a known fact that all dog breeds originated from the wolf. The anatomy, bone structures, nervous systems and mentalities have all originated from the same place. Your fear mongering is hateful, and again, pathetic.
I appreciate Josh Liddy’s passion and certainly appreciate the love people feel for their pit bulls, I’ve met plenty of pits that are sweet hearts. But, unfortunately, Josh and others are putting their hearts ahead of their heads. The rebuttal is filled with half-truths and non-sequiter responses to the questions that have been posed.
I can perfectly acknowledge that 99+% of pits will not kill a person. But Josh says that as if it responds to the point. It does not. Pits are a small (but growing) portion of the total dog population, but they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of deaths. Josh never responds to that. Even if the total amount of deaths is not great, they simply cannot be dismissed as a non-issue — it’s remarkably insensitive to do so.
Beyond deaths, the issue is that, of course, many attacks don’t result in death but do result in serious injuries.
Josh’s analogy of pits to guns is, ironically, right on. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” is the NRA slogan, and I guess Josh’s analogy is that “Pits don’t kill people, people who don’t train their pits properly kill people.” Well…it isn’t to take the onus off of irresponsible owners, but just as in the absence of a gun a fight is less likely to be deadly, a poorly trained chihuahua will nip obnoxiously while a pit does serious damage. To conflate the two (as a commentator below does) is absurd.
The type of dog is, in short, a relevant variable. To pretend it is not is just silly.
And, last, what about other dogs? It is purely anecdotal, but at dog parks most every fight I see involves a pit bull. My own dog almost died and had 13 stitches when the pit bull living next door (a generally very sweet, well trained pit, by the way, among the fallacies in Josh’s piece is that this is only about irresponsible owners) jumped the fence and attacked her (my dog was 16 years old and pretty much defenseless). I find it odd that supposed dog lovers are arguing about this as if the only thing that matters is attacks on humans. The domination by pit bulls at dog parks in a big city like mine makes it very difficult for those with other dogs to go to dog parks.
Until pit bull owners get their heads out of the sand and realize that pit pulls are different than many other dogs, the issue won’t be dealt with.
@anthonyxb this is true– pit owners need to know that there are always risks and “differences”, but the same with other dogs and yes: pit, rot, dobe (aggressive breeds so to speak) etc. need to be monitored more than say a lab, chiweenie, teacup breeds or the like… About dog parks…I know they are meant to let dogs run and play, but I as a responsible pit owner(who knows my dog well enough) would never take the risk of my pit with all the different variables of situations that could happen especially in a dog park would not let him off his leash. I have learned with my pit(who I adopted, and who came from an abusive background) at least that he is extra sensitive to certain things and can get excited to certain things. The best way I can discribe what I am talking about is since my pit was abused I know I have to be careful with him in any situation, because he’s a good boy very loving, cuddly, and loyal to me.
P.S. sorry what happened to your dog I am surprised that it was actually a well trained pit, and thank you for not attacking the breed. My thing is all dog owners no matter what the breed just need to be responsible and know the in’s and out’s of the breed, as well as, their own dog(s) specific personality and not pretend that things won’t happen.
Consider that the reason that the dog aggressive dogs are in the dog park in the first place is not that they chose to go to the dog park themselves but that an irresponsible human chose to bring them there.
If a person knows that their dog is aggressive, isn’t it that person’s responsbility to find an alternate way to exercise the dog? The dog doesn’t really have that choice. I have a highly dog aggressive golden retriever (and please don’t consider banning goldens because of that). I do not bring her to the dog park. She is always leashed in public. My yard is very secure. She has lived 9 years of her life without incident – why? Because I’ve chosen to be responsible, knowing the limitations of my dog.
There are millions of pit bull owners out there that you will never see in the news who are being equally careful with their dogs – whether or not they are dog aggressive.. Judgements and stereotypes are always based on a minority because good dogs don’t make the news.
In the story that started this whole commentary, those dogs that killed this poor woman’s Weim, spent their entire lives on the end of a chain. Why are we blaming the prisoner when it’s really the fault of the person who emprisoned them that the dogs were angry and pent up?.
@KimSmith
Kim that’s a great point. But not everyone knows (or realizes, or admits) that their dog is aggressive, until it acts aggressively. Again, in the case of pitbulls and other dogs bred to be disproportionately strong, when they find out, it’s too late. If you find out that a Golden Retriever is aggresive because it’s attacking another dog, there is a far better chance that you can stop the retriever, or that it will take longer for the retreiever to cause grave damage compared to a pitbull, who is complete muscle and who’s jaw has been bred to have disproportionate strength—for killing.
And yes, of course there are lots of responsible pitbull owners that never have incidents, and you don’t hear as often about them.
If that dog lived its life on the end of the chain, that is very sad, and I’m sure it contributed. If it wasn’t a pitbull though there’s a good chance the weim would have gotten away, or simply fought back until the other dog backed off.
@PNB troll is obvious troll…
@anthonyxb again, another biased post driven by emotion. I’m sorry that your dog got attacked, yet I am sure there is more to your story than you are revealing. A sweet well trained pit will not just up and be aggressive…yes, they may be in protective mode, but anything else, they will have to be provoked. Provocation is no reason to murder. With people, if you assault, and and cause great injury to another, you will not be charged with assault, if the victim provoked his attacker…any dog, whether a pit or not, bill eventually defend, or attack if provoked. I have a little 35 lb English Staffy, a Pit mix, and a Golden Retriever, they are happy go lucky, until a dog gets aggressive with them, and we have never had an issue with the many Pit bull or Pit type dogs at any dog park we frequent, and they are always a few of these dogs in the park at any given time. The usually are so into their human, or just minding their own business…they stay very close to their humans too…never an issue. The only aggression we have seen is from other dogs, and they are usually small ones. Any dog will be sketchy when they are not SOCIALIZED properly.
I don’t know if you made a reference to the pregnant woman who was found dead with her 2 Pits…the true story is, she fell, hit her head. One of her Pits came to her rescue, as she lied there bleeding, the Pit laid down next to her getting her blood all over it. The husband returned raced toward his wife, causing the Pit to run out…there must have been an open door, as the police shot the dog in the yard. The other Pit was in another room more than likely scared to death. There were no signs of injure from a dog.
As far as dogs go, the strength of a dog’s jaws is relevant to his size, and fitness. Studies show, Pits do not have more PSI in there jaws…it’s a myth. Another myth is the locking jaws. They don’t lock, they just hang on. They were bred to control Bulls for the Rancher, not attack humans, or other dogs. They were bred to not be human aggressive, that is why the police, and military do not use them. They are used for search and rescue, bomb and drug sniffing, service/therapy, agility competition, and flyball.
So, pull your ignorant head out of your ass, and do a little research, ask some questions, or just pay attention, before you write something. Stop making a fool of yourself. Peace.
@anthonyxb I certainly do respond to to the deaths. What did you read? Any severely dog-aggressive Pit Bull should be dealt with on an individual basis. Any human-aggressive Pit Bull should be dealt with on an individual basis. Guess what? When you replace “Pit Bull” with “dog” all of those statements are still true.
I ask for common sense. I ask for the focus to be put on the ROOT of the problem, not on the dog. Look to its treatment, look to its environment, look to its handlers, look to its socialization, look to its spay/neuter status. This list goes on and on and on…
How can you co-sign my gun example, while still doubling down on the demonization of millions of dogs, as if they were all the same? That’s what’s absurd.
Comparing a Pit Bull to a Chihuahua, in scale of “potential damages,” isn’t really legitimate. I didn’t make that comparison. But I can tally off about 50+ dog breeds that are just as capable of a certain level of harm as any random Pit Bull is. I’m using quotations because, you know, some of y’all obviously worship at the alter of being vague. Most larger breed dogs can “potentially” cause VERY serious harm. That case can always be made, so long as there is examples, which there is (from all kinds). Just ask the French woman who underwent the world’s first “face transplant,” after her LAB mauled her in 2005. You deny that and you totally lose any honest credibility. But look at how likely it is, then look at why it was. Those are the only things that should matter. According to the Discovery Channel, “hot dogs” kill 70 people per year. Damn!
Regarding some of your other points: Please read (if you want to) my response to PNB (below), which I just left. It thoroughly addresses your last couple of paragraphs.
There is no doubt that this is a sensitive,highly debated topic. But after watching a dog that was not a Pit Bull die in Ireland, I thought that might make people take a longer look at the issue.
I was one of the uneducated haters. Even put “no Pit Bull or Pit Bull mixes” on my SPCA application when looking for a new dog after my Rottweiler/GSD mix died. I adopted another GSD by the way, also considered a dangerous breed, as was the Rott. Both awesome family pets. By the way, I had cats as well with those dogs and also today with my current dogs.
Then I started volunteering at my local county animal shelter. The majority of big dog ‘inventory’ is Pit and Pit mix. I trained to be a dog walker, so I had to either suck it up and give them a try or walk just the small breeds (which got away from me so often I actually quit trying to walk them!) After seeing the condition of most of the Pit Bulls coming in there and hearing what the public thinks of them, I was shocked at their reality – loyal, smart, loving, even goofballs – in a stressful shelter environment no less.
There is too much hate in the world already. We can debate statistics all day long. I am an educated person, with many awards, whether academic (summa cum laude) or professional (volunteer of the year in various organizations and promotions within my ‘real’ job). I say that to dispell the uneducated, meth addict, etc. myth.
However, I have found that very few people are swayed by others’ arguments, no matter how factual, when an emotional event has taken place. Therefore, I say go judge for yourself. I personally rarely listen to what anyone else has to say since there are so many variables to any given situation.
The only way to know about Pit Bulls for sure is to educate yourself by actual experience and interacting with them. That’s what changed my mind and nothing else. I adopted the Pit Bull that was my foster. No one was more surprised than me to see how gentle and loving she is. My GSD is a little ‘off’ due to the abuse she suffered before I adopted her and my Staffordshire was the first dog that would tolerate her. What a role reversal that is! Had I not seen it for myself, I would not have believed it possible.
I am now 4 years into my volunteer service at the ‘pound’. I deliberately chose a municipal shelter since they are required to take all animals within their jurisdiction, whether stray, owner-surrendered, abuse/bite cases, etc. They cannot turn anyone away like private organizations can do. There is no more real experience than that.
I simply ask you all to go see for yourselves, especially if you are willing to wipe out an entire breed of dogs. That decision cannot be made lightly nor without personal knowledge or experience, in my humble opinion.
@petfan53 Absolutely. I actually just posted a video about this exact topic 2 days ago… http://www.swaylove.org/meet-some-pit-bulls-first
@petfan53 I wish more people were like you…taking the time to find out for yourself. The Pit Bull, and PitXs are so often misunderstood. I thank you for your post. It is eloquently written, and sounds like from the heart. Pit Bulls are such a great breed. I find myself wanting to take them all home.
I am saddened by the ignorance views people have, and the unvalidated misconceptions…1 in particular: “how they are bred”, they are dogs…bred just like any other. “they do more damage than other breeds”, damage is not determined by breed, but by the SIZE of the dog! So many unwarranted myths…so sad. It’s discrimination at it’s best. Thanks petfan53. Share your experience with everyone you meet! 🙂
@justaG – Thanks, G. I think I have a unique perspective because I have been on both sides of the fence – I once feared and hated Pits and now advocate for them. I should also point out that I am a white woman, over 50, with 2 bachelors degrees, so I do not fit the stereotype of a Pit Bull owner.
My heart does truly break for Pam. If I were in her shoes, I would be very upset and want accountability, too. However, just as in any other traumatic event, it becomes human nature to lump all of the offenders together. In other words, wanting to get rid of all Pit Bulls is a human nature response. I have seen the flip side, though, and watched many of them pay for something they did not do. I’ve seen them with their ears cut off, scars from fighting or being used as bait if they would not fight, etc. I personally am not going to pay for anything I haven’t done, so we should not make a whole breed pay for what a few have done.
So, for anyone who lives near Sacramento, CA, I would be happy to meet you at the county animal shelter and you can see for yourself. While there, perhaps we can go back to the euthanasia room and you can watch an abandoned, scared dog be put down, albeit humanely, while looking into their pleading eyes, searching for compassion that never comes. I am a ‘put your money where your mouth is’ kind of person, so until one makes that level of commitment and is willing to face that gut wrenching experience, I cannot back a plan to end a whole breed. My head is starting to hurt, my stomach is turning and tears are streaming down my face at the memory of holding an abandoned Pit Bull I named Henry as he was put to sleep earlier this year. He died simply because there are too many Pit Bulls and too much negative press to find homes for them all.
I really feel badly for Pam and hope that she is able to find some comfort after such a horrible incident. But killing Pit Bulls that have not done anything is not the answer.
@petfan53 @justaG my sentiments for Pam are the same, and I too would want some restitution, yet only deal with the parties involved. My heart goes out to you, and your compassion for this breed, and mixes of. I don’t know if I could handle the euth room. 🙁
I to am a white woman over 50. No degrees…I am an owner of 1 Pit-X, and 2 English Staffies. My Pit-X is the best dog, second only to my childhood German Shepard/Collie. Staffies are the silliest ones of all! So fun, happy, friendly to all dogs, and all humans. God Bless you, and God Bless Pam.
I find it funny and sad that people who have never owner or been around in any social capacity can speak so passionately about Pitbulls. Just because a dog has an owner does not mean it’s not neglected or abused. Responisible people of all dogs know their dog…if a dog has a higher prey drive (like most Terriers) need to accommodate to that dogs needs..no dog parks. I have 3 rescued Pitbulls, 1 is a certified therapy dog and all 3 have their canine good citizen. I exercise them daily, train and love them. They have doggie and kitty friends as well as countless human friends. Don’t rely on statistics from fear or hate based sites. Be smart and research valid, nationally recognized sites like the Humane Society of America, the National Canine Research Council, or the American Veterinary Association to name just a few. Top Vets and behaviorists like Dr. Ian Dunbar who is renown throughout the world promote and love this vilified breed. There are tens of thousands of family Pitbulls, working dogs, therapy and search and rescue Pitbulls…you just need to open your eyes because the media will never show them…check out some websites ( stubby dog, for pits sake, game dog guardian, etc.) we try to teach our youth not to stereotype because it’s wrong and it’s wrong with dogs as well. Non responsible Pitbull owners need to be humbled and know that they are basing their theories on what has been told to them through biased reporting. I’m a nurse, I would never tell a baker how to bake or I would never pretend to know about string theory if I weren’t a physicist. Don’t pretend to know Pitbulls if you don’t responsibly own one or work with them. Doctors,lawyers, nurses, teachers,social workers, businessman, celebrities…all own and love Pitbulls…could thousands upon thousands of people be clueless? I think not. It’s sad that this breed often falls into the hands of truly terrible people, but is through no fault of their own. These dogs are severely tortured and abused every day and to keep perpetuating myths is morally wrong and inhumane. If you really want to know a Pitbull go to a shelter and volunteer…many a mind has been changed by actually meeting and interacting with this loving, goofy, loyal, strong dog. So for all you haters out there, stop the hate and make a difference. Try to be open minded and really learn. Don’t let the media tell you how to think, you are not mindless robots…or are you?
@rn4pitbulls Really? You think it’s odd that people who have had family members or family dogs ripped apart by pit bulls would be passionate about the topic? I honestly appreciate the love people have for dogs and that pit bulls can be fine, sweet dogs. But if you don’t think there’s more to the story than “I have a pit bull and I love my pit bull,” then your mind is very closed indeed. Sadly so.
@anthonyxb @rn4pitbulls
” You think it’s odd that people who have had family members or family dogs ripped apart by pit bulls would be passionate about the topic?”
have you seen on the news several times when a parent or child of a person murder by a human forgive, but always say they won’t forget, and that their lives will be changed forever. It’s true they will always carry their experience with them for the rest of their lives… But they still live their lives and deal with people who might remind them of that tragic day. In some instances facing your fears/hatred/stereotypes by live research could help understand things in a different perspective, than automatically assuming that everyone/animal act the same…no one said that a person who has been through a tragic incident involving a pitt had to own one or have to even like one that’s not it at all all most of us owners ask is to understand that we have not been so unfortunate. Responsible pitt owners are not “closed” minded, because if we were we would be like you and half a dozen other people who have commented. Sadly so you are closed minded in making that comment. I love all my dogs the same and I have a variety of breeds. The pit I own now is actually my first, and my eyes have been opened to a different view…I use to be like a few of you in not really liking the breed, but I did my research and adopted one…and now I love him as much as any other breed I have or had. Not saying that everyone should go out and get a pit, because not everyone needs to own one.
@rn4pitbulls
There are no myths being perpetuated in my comments. In fact the only myths that I’ve seen on this board are coming from pitbull owners spinning statistics like politicians trying to defend their position by any means necessary and everyone else be damned. I’m starting to think that many pitbull owners either didn’t finish high school or college or never had a critical thinking class. Josh’s article, and every comment I’ve read besides Anthony’s is simply an emotionally written list of nice things their pitbull has done, bad math, and a total misunderstanding of what people against continuing the breed are saying.
Don’t you know that the sensationalism and “biased reporting”, and stereotyping around pitbulls and the fact that they have the ability to and the inclination to attack and kill or mame swiftly more than any other dog breed are not mutually exclusive? That is to say, I’m sure all of that stuff is true—and it doesn’t change a thing! They are still terribly dangerous animals when they decide to be, and that’s all that matters.
@PNB @rn4pitbulls I really resend your remark about people owning pit bulls never finishing high school or College. I know several people with Master degrees who owns very wonderful Pit bulls. As for the ability to mame and kill, well any and all dogs have that ability. I have seen at least 2 cases where a Weimaraner killed the families other dog. Mind you these dog actually lived together.
Pit bulls were bread for dog fighting, so you will find Pits that are very dog aggressive. However dog aggressive is not = to human aggressive. On the contrary, the fighting dogs where specifically chosen to be non aggressive towards humans. If they show/ed any form of aggression towards a human they would/will be put down. How do I know this, well I read a lot and I happen to work with one of this countries best ACO’s who deals with cruelty cases and fighting rings.
Oh by the way. He sees far more cruelty cases involving Pit Bulls than he does bite cases.
@KristinSlettingKey @PNB @rn4pitbulls Being dog aggressive is not okay, Kristin, I’m not sure why you seem to think it is.
The anger and aggression of some of the commentators here is very disturbing. it seems to be a way to avoid facing the reality that some dogs are more dangerous, simply put, and among those dogs are pit bulls. Not complicated and not controversial if you’re at all rational.
What to do about that is much more difficult — no easy answers, there. But a discussion of that starts with facing reality.
@anthonyxb troll is obvious troll…
@PNB @rn4pitbulls another clueless know it all….if you don’t like pit bulls fine, get off our sites with your crap talk, we don’t need your opinions, I believe you are the uneducated one here. So take your insults and move on to someone who really wants to hear your bla bla bla.
@Cheryl821 @PNB @rn4pitbulls
You’re right Kristin, that was a cheap shot. I’m still waiting for an intelligent argument though. Cheryl, if you think presenting a cogent argument for why pitbulls are dangerous animals is “crap talk”, you are sadly fooling yourself.
@PNB Oh yes sad, it is but for you and your ignorrance. Did you go to the website I posted? I suppose not….your so called cogent argument is just more babble you looked up on some site that is against the pit bulls. Do you or have you ever owned a pit? I suppose not because oh my God they will turn on you and kill you and your family, really???? Again educate yourself, you and Anthony are a real team. Coming here talking crap, that’s right CRAP and you know it, as I said before it’s haters like you who come to our sites just to start. I know your kind, your time would be better served doing volunteer work, so get your big boy/girl panties on and do something worth while with you spare time, you guys hide behind a keyboard lol just trouble makers, plain and simple, hmmmmm I guess like you, plain and simple! I am done here, you are not worth anymore of my time and everyone else should just let it go because you think your right and everyone else is wrong….I have a life so I hope you find one also – Have a most wonderful day! :o)
@Cheryl821 @PNB Chery1821. 🙂 Ditto! These….um, beings, are plain and simple, Trolls. They are very transparent as so many can see. Just ignore them…trying to show them how lame they are just feeds their trolling addiction…kinda like a crackhead… seriously. I bet they got a rush from reading your post.
@justaG Thanks appreciate the back up. Nothing but trouble makers. The site I posted on an earlier post, those kids burned a pit puppy over 70% of his little body, he passed away :o( Haters make me sick, grrrr
@Cheryl821 @justaG OMG! that is is just plain evil! Heart breaking. 🙁 Mother F’rs!
@Anthony, I find that you are projecting with the small mind comments. I rescue them and have for 12 years, like any other breed there are solid dogs, some with issues….and before I go on, let me share that I had a Weimereiner try to bite me when I was younger, the owner of the dog had it off leash….so you see it really is very much who is behind the dog and what they do or do not do. I do not hate Weimereiners nor do I feel they should be exterminated or banned. And I have yet to meet one that does not bounce off the walls with so much pent up energy because people do not properly exercise them. Most people should not own Weimerieners, they are very active dogs, and can become very unstable and unbalanced if not properly exercised. What happened to this woman’s dog is horrific, NO one is challenging that. And I was not there, nor were you. And do we know if the Weim was antagonizing the dogs….? And like many breeds of dogs, many people just do not perform the research whether small breed or large and get themselves into trouble by taking in dogs on physical appearance. Several years ago when a Pomeranian killed a 6 month old baby and that is a human baby Anthony, I did not see people ranting about banning that breed. Dachshunds are the number one biters, no one is demanding for them to be banned. Larger dogs cause more damage, no matter what the breed is. I believe the Labrador is second in bite incidents because of the popularity of the breed. Every time there is an incident with any animal are we all going to be demanding they be banned exterminated…it is never the answer.
Recently a man that worked with horses and one of his prize stallions for 6 solid years. He went into the horse’s barn to let him out, the horse grabbed him by the throat and flung him. Thankfully he is going to be OK, and he has not killed the horse….or is now not requesting that all quarter horses be banned, or exterminated. He is a national champion and knows his way around horses, things happen when people have animals.
You belittle everyone that has provided an informed and fact based rebuttal to this woman’s pained letter and her story is sad, however it is also full of holes. One thing which you must keep in mind is us responsible people that work with the breed are all about facts, protecting them…because we are all they have to overcome ignorance and posting inaccurate information furnished by sources which are against the breed. We do our research.
I have plenty of fact based in the news stories about Pit Bulls saving lives, Stubby being the most decorated war hero of WW1,
1. Look up Sergeant Stubby
2. Popsicle found in a freezer now a drug sniffing dog for US customs, found over 3000 pounds of cocaine more than any other drug sniffing dog.
3 . Weela-1993 helped 30 people, 29 dogs, 13 horses and 1 cat in a heavy flood
4. Dixie – jumped between her family and a rattle snake saved the children
5. Chief – Philippines saved his family from a cobra, he died saving his family.
There are hundreds more. YOU perform your research, you absolutely are in no position to challenge those that do know the breed. You are on the path of this poor woman that only sees her dog dying and now wanting an entire breed gone over 2 dogs.
@Sp1959 These are all non-sequiter arguments. no one said pit pulls are the only dog to bite. Nor did anyone say all pit bulls are bad or have never done good things. I’ve made a point of repeating, in fact, that I’ve met a lot very sweet pits.
Those illogical non-sequiters just change the subject from a simple fact: We do have a family of dogs that despite all their great qualities is disproportionately responsible for dangerous attacks on humans and on other dogs. What to do about that is the question.
@PNB actually your commentary is full of holes as well. Emotions aside facts are facts, and proper research should always be performed. Any dog can cause damage, the larger the animal the great the damage can be caused. To blame one breed is ludicrous at best. Not long ago the first face transplant was performed on a woman in France due to her own Labrador biting it nearly off. They were just “in bed” as the story goes….should all Labs be killed off now? And we are only getting Pam’s side of the story, NO one knows whether her dog was the instigator, or if the attack was unwarranted, or….. And Pam cannot be objective about this because she lost her dog. It is a very unfortunate incident, but the entire breed is not going to be paying for 2 dogs, and her incident. To paint them with a broad brush stroke is moronic.
@Sp1959 @PNB Name one hole in my argument. Your whole comment is the same nonsense over and over—you’re doing the same thing people are accusing anti-pitbull advocates are doing, just listing stories about good things that pitbulls have done, all the while criticizing the other side for their stories showing terrible things pitbulls have done. THAT is moronic. Aren’t you reading what Anthony and I wrote? We know that pitbulls are capable of both good and bad things. The specifics of the problems are explained quite specifically in both of our comments.
@PNB Your condescending attitude is certainly not helping your cause PNB. It is a subject that you and this Anthony person and I or others will not agree on. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. I will leave you to your insanity. One cannot converse or exchange with elements such as you.
I am finding you redundant, and admonishing anyone that has a different view or opinion, which brings you onto the sophomoric level now.
Have a lovely day.
@Sp1959 @PNB Don’t worry, I revealed his holes.
I had a loose dog come into my yard and kill my cat right in front of me, so I can sympathize with Pam’s anguish on losing her beautiful Bleu. That was 5 years ago and I still “see” that fateful day every time I close my eyes and think about it. Today I own 2 Pitbull type dogs (one who was a rescue). They are both gentle, loving beautiful girls who make my life whole. I also have 4 cats that play with both of my dogs without any fear at all of being harmed. In fact both dogs will share their food with any cat who wants a nibble. Mia will find frogs and carry them around in her mouth for hours and let them go unharmed.
Our rescue Jersey has been with us for 8 months. She was abused and starved to the point of death and then abandon in a farmers field to die. She should be a viscous, drooling, ready to kill dog then right? Ha! This beautiful loving ray of sunshine cuddles with the cats, sleeps hugging Mia and pees on the floor if a unknown male human walks towards her. She loves affection and is learning that she can ask to be petted by a gentle nudge without being hurt for it.
Every dog no matter what breed it is can cause harm. Every human no matter what Nationality they are can cause harm. So in saying that do we kill every Canadian because one of them drove drunk and killed someone? Do we ban Muslims because we can? So why kill Pitbulls because 1 in a million killed your dog?
I also must point out that I have been bitten 5 times by dogs… (Beagle, Lhasa Apso, Akita, Lab and a mixed breed mutt that looked like Benji) The worst thing a large breed dog has ever done to me was pee on my leg.
This is a discussion that will always be divided. Both sides will always have a bigger better argument than the other. I’ll take my chances with the pitbull. I have never met one that deserves to die just because of they way it looks.
@Wendy0464 Great share Wendy, no doubt the naysayers will find fault with that as well.
As best as I can tell, the anti-pit bull arguments that are being presented in these comments can be boiled down to this:
“We have a family of dogs that despite all their great qualities is disproportionately responsible for dangerous attacks on humans and on other dogs. What to do about that is the question.”
I’m not closed to this argument. This is a reasonable position to take when something presents a real enough and credible enough threat. After all, there are all sorts of things that we, as a society, do not allow people to do or have because the threat to people or property is too great.
However, the key to this argument is that the threat has to reach a level – a threshold – by which it justifies an action. And therein lies the problem for those who make this argument about pit bulls.
The numbers are hard to analyze for lots of different reasons, but I have yet to see any credible statistics or analysis that would leave me to believe that this breed of dog is a significant enough threat to society that it should be regulated, banned, or – as some people here are actually suggesting – forced into extinction.
The BEST I have heard or seen presented is what I quoted above. That pitbulls are “disproportionately responsible for dangerous attacks on humans and on other dogs.”
Disproportionately is the key word they are using.
A disproportional amount of a very low a number… is still a very low number.
In other words, IF pit bulls are in fact disproportionately responsible for dangerous attacks on people and other dogs (and the truth of this depends on how you slice and dice the data), that does not mean that this is happening in numbers that would justify what these folks are suggesting we should do about it.
66 fatal bite attacks over a 20 year span is the worst I’ve seen reported for pit bull type dogs – that comes from a credible study in a peer reviewed journal. Now, any death is upsetting, that goes without saying, but I encourage you all to look into how that number stands up against other causes of death in our society over a 20 year period… including from things that we freely embrace. It is minuscule by any account.
And while I understand that the concern here is about “dangerous attacks”, I think it is also important to understand that research has called into question the notion that pit bulls represent a large proportion of non-fatal bites. A fascinating study of bite statistics in the UK after they banned pit bull type dogs, have shown that the number of dog bites stayed the same once pit bulls were gone.
At the end of the day… In my humble opinion… regulations and legislation must be well justified – especially if they limit our choices or freedoms. In terms of protecting society from threats, that means the threat must be real and must reach a level that is at least somewhat close to being on par with other threats that we’ve decided to regulate.
Just to summarize my thoughts:
– I think it is reasonable to suggest we regulate legitimate threats in our society
– I’ve seen no data that would indicate that any breed of dog presents a legitimate level of threat to society.
– A high proportion of a small number… is still a small number. Saying that pit bulls account for a disproportional amount of dangerous attacks does NOT in turn mean that there is a large number of these attacks taking place.
– The actual threat of a dangerous pit bull attack is minuscule, especially when compared to other threats in our society that we embrace or deem acceptable.
– Regulations and legislation must be well justified – especially if they attempt to limit our choices or freedoms or if they single out specific groups of people.
@DaveNethaway
This is the first thoughtful and intelligent comment I’ve read on here. Very reasonable. I think I simply disagree that even a small number of disproportionate pitbull attacks is not worth limiting or eliminating the breed—if it creates such a disproportionate risk, where people have to be worried or extra cautious around pitbulls, I think that justifies taking action. There are lots of people, governments, businesses, militaries, and others out there who agree with me, and there are obviously those that don’t.
Very well written, thank you for speaking for us millions of “pit bull” owners. I t makes me sad and enraged that people are willing to destroy millions of dogs because of the actions of very few. I feel bad for those people, they will never know the love, loyalty and compassion of a “pit bull”. Consider this, more people die each year from falling coconuts, maybe it is time to ban coconut trees.
So, if someone decided to eliminate this type of dog, then I would like to know who decides if a dog is a “pit bull”? Also, what percentage “pit bull” does the dog have to be? Would they be full APBT, American Bulldogs, Bull Terriers, etc. or just the mutts in shelters? This is a scary thought and can impact WAY more people/pets than expected. You may not think your dog has charateristics, BUT depending on the person there may be a match.
[…] that being said, I maintain that people and animals alike should be treated as individuals and judged by their specif…. You cannot demonize anything for the actions of a few. You cannot honesty attempt to ban or cull a […]
Since Bleu’s death March 9, 2012, I have become educated about pitbulls, pitbull owners, and the numbers and horrific injuries and deaths by these genetically engineered dogs. To deny the scientific facts regarding their capacity for inflicting gruesome injury is to embrace ignorance with both armst. When my commentary was published, I really only knew what I had researched during a short time on the internet; however, since that time, I’ve been contacted personally by hundreds of victims worldwide who found me through the newspaper articles and wanted to share their pitbull attack horrors. I now know people who have lost children, children’s faces and body parts, pets, livestock and these are not generalized statistics…they are human beings deserving of more than being sacrificed at the altar of pitbull idolatry.
I wrote an e-mail to a newspaper reporter, Robert DeWitt with The Tuscaloosa News, due to a piece he had written about encountering a pitbull mother eating food in his garage and how afraid he was. He published the e-mail as I sent it without editing so very early on after Bleu’s senseless torture and death. The other newspaper commentaries followed.
I was initially shocked at the hatred, anger, discrimination against human beings and their pets, and outright evil launched at me after I realized that two dogs that had been in my yard often for over 2 years, eaten with Bleu, been petted by me and my grandson, and used the same vet we used just torn him apart and left him to die in a blood-sprayed puddle behind one of our barns.
I am not ignorant, uneducated, banned from procreation, less than human or any of the other hate-filled jargon slung at me by the pitbull advocates who profess to be the good owners whose dogs would lick people to death, nanny their children, protect newborns from danger, nurse newborn kittens, be service dogs for the blind/PTSD veterans/deaf or otherwise handicapped, love all tiny animals, save the drowning, protect and serve in the military, and heal the blind…all but the last remark actually posted in response to my commentaries.
I know that pitbulls attack without prior indication of provocation, soundless, relentless, bloody, grotesque, gruesome, meaty mauling, painful, useless, senseless savage brutality…I’ve seen it, I’ve heard about it, I’ve researched it, I HAVE LIVED IT.
If pitbull advocates want to change the image their dogs are creating for themselves every single day, every single day, every single day…then start by monitoring the pitbull rescues for problematic dogs, monitoring potential pitbull owners, neutering all pitbulls, requiring muzzling while on wrist-strapped leashes so if the pit bolts after another animal the owner has to follow, requiring 8 foot fencing for all pitbulls, requiring double entrance doors into homes with pits to prevent bolting into street when door is opened, requiring liability insurance to cover injuries for pitbull attack victims, and blaming the damn breed for doing what they have been bred to do for generations. If pitbull owners do not understand genetics, then they should sign up for a couple of college courses on the subject so they will realize how ignorant they are when posting statements that educated people are reading.
My Bleu was a beautiful, gentle, neutered dog killed in my yard by a neighbor’s American bulldog and a pitbull, but he was a dog, a dog, just a dog. I grieved his death and how he died, but he was a dog just like pitbull owners need to know that they have a dog, just a dog. It is the human victims attacked daily and killed often that should be protected from the stupidity of blind pitbull defense. Innocent pets, like Bleu, should not be sacrificed to pitbull worship either, but people suffered horrendous, life-changing attacks because of A DOG!
The lack of conscience, the defense of defenseless attack, the excuses for a mutated breed, the blaming of the victims, the myths and lies often quoted do not support pitbulls in any way. These things only make the real problem worse by letting those who are mutilated and affected by the deaths know there is a real evil presence in the pitbull community who relish in the torture and death of others.
Deny this??? Prove it!!!
@PameAshley Pam, you have my sincere condolences for your loss. And my sincere appreciation for engaging in an open discussion about these issues.
I for one am not only happy to engage in a discussion based on facts… but I feel that this is the ONLY way to have a productive conversation about this topic. However, you are unlikely to get any traction with those of us who do care about scientific facts, when you provide none.
You referenced genetics, education, and scientific facts… all very important and relevant to the conversation… but then you did nothing but talk about your personal experience and present anecdotal evidence from people who have contacted you. As an educated person, which you seem to claim and care about, certainly you realize that scientific facts are held to a much higher standard.
You state that humans are attacked “daily” and killed “often” by pitbulls, but provide no sources to back this up. I for one would love to review these sources, if you have them, as they would contradict the peer reviewed studies that are actually mentioned in comments below.
As a victim of a horrible tragedy, I can imagine this is a hard topic for you to maintain an unemotional, grounded, factual opinion about. However, if you are going to claim science as the basis of your position, then that is exactly what is needed.
@PameAshley Ms. Pam…there are so many medias that don’t give facts, first…so I hope the internet sites you went to were factual. Some people who report pitbull attacks, don’t even know if it really was, but the media loves to put fear into the masses so they automatically blame the pitbull… case in point, can you find the pitbull in this picture? http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
if you can, you are one in few. I’m sorry about your dog, it is a horrible thing to experence. Blaming a whole breed is NOT, however the answer.
@TraciBrunnemann @PameAshley Traci – I never want you to experience what other pitbull attack victims and myself have experienced. Nothing we say nor feel relates to internet research anymore…we are the internet resources. Ours are the stories that others like us read when they become victims. We are growing daily by sad, sad numbers. 18 people killed by pitbulls so far this year alone.
@PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann Pam, I would love to see the source for this statement, “18 people killed by pitbulls so far this year alone” – thanks.
@DaveNethaway @PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann Pam has absolutely no evidence of that, and that’s why she didn’t source it, because the legitimate proof doesn’t exist. NO SPAYED/NEUTERED, HOUSEHOLD PET (NON-CHAINED, NON-ROAMING) PIT BULL HAS EVER KILLED ANYONE, EVER. Period. End of story.
@DaveNethaway @PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann Lookie… A Weimaraner (the same type of dog as Pam’s dog, Bleu) mauls and kills a child in Florida = http://www.cape-coral-daily-breeze.com/page/content.detail/id/513660/Police-release-name-of-toddler-killed-by-family-dog.html
@DaveNethaway @PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann Now, by Pam’s own logic, Weimaraners must then be banned as well. Right? In all seriousness: I wonder that if Pam were a Florida resident, and they enacted a ban in response to this tragedy, if she would have then been okay with turning Bleu over to the authorities once a court of law visually established him as fitting a mold that represented a Weimaraner… Pam? Because, as the link shows, they too are clearly capable of inflicting horrific damage upon human flesh. This is my attempt at speaking Pam’s level of crazy.
@PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann
Pam Im starting to see a running theme with you……..”victim”
@ShannonOlivolo @PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann what else would you call someone or some animal mutilated and killed? You got another name for victim of attack other than victim?
@TraciBrunnemann I can see that, like smokers/alcoholics/drug addicts and others with dependency issues, you do not want to help yourself so I will help you when you are ready. I truly am here if you decide to drop the hatred and attempts to hurt people who have already been hurt beyond belief and become productive in helping others. I copy all names at the sites I visit in case any of your dogs are involved in an attack. By the way, go to the news on the internet and look at the sentence handed down to a pitbull owner whose dogs killed a neighbor…sign of things to come. The failure of pitbull owners to control their own chosen pets and the failure of pitbull owners to educate new owners to proper containment and safety for others is hurting all of your words to the contrary.
I cannot help you unless you want it. I will not continue to argue fact against tired pointless jargon. I really am here if any of you need me.
@PameAshley @TraciBrunnemann
Pam, you don’t want to help anyone, YOU want everyone to see things the exact same way you are seeing it now, Jaded and closed minded.
Keep watching for my dog’s names, they are Maci and Hoss and we live in Northern Virginia. BUT before you say you’ve already seen their names, you best be 100% for sure. Because my dogs have never even been reported as having been an aggressor towards human or animal.
My other Pit’s names have been Kacie, she lived to be 14yrs old and NEVER hurt a soul. Angus and Angel were 2 more and I assure you they had also never been reported.
Angel was abused and neglected by a HUMAN, beaten in the face and disfigured by a HUMAN and thrown from a moving car by a HUMAN and NEVER once threatened, postured, or attacked any HUMAN. She took up the position of protector the minute my son arrived home and I would have trusted his life to her.
YOU are very disrespectful, very narrow minded, and very evasive with answering questions put to you and yet you want Pit Bull owners to own up to the fact they are chosing a ‘dangerous’ breed. How about you Answer truthfully some of the questions put to you and stop evading and casting shadows.
@PameAshley Pam (if this is really you), It’s sad that you opted to come and post here, but yet didn’t reference or focus your response towards anything that I actually said. Literally anything. My response to your piece WAS NOT “blind defense,” nor was it “worship,” nor was it “idoltry.” You cop-out really quick when confronted with rational dialogue. What I’ve said here in response to your op-ed wasn’t a pack of “myths” or a pack of “lies.” But that’s all that you’re clearly set on acknowledging them as, as you apparently have no way to respond to what I’ve said outside of just vaguely doubling down on broad-brushing hate. You talk about those that are “innocent,” yet have no regard for any dog that resembles a Pit Bull and that also happens to be innocent themselves. Their innocence doesn’t matter to you. I have no idea what types of comments (as a whole) you’ve received from the “Pit Bull community” as you like to say, but I can’t be held accountable for anyone else’s actions outside of my own. I certainly never “blamed the victim,” I actually started my letter by apologizing to the victim for their loss. If you are actually implying that I’m part of this “real evil presence that relishes in the torture and death of others,” well, then you’re so beyond rational and sane that I won’t even bother going forward with you… You are a compartmentalized person who thinks that large groups should be punished for the actions of the few, and with no regard to the individual. That is dangerous, not my dog. Again, either respond to what I’ve personally said here or just don’t bother to post… After all, this started as a letter addressed to YOU. I’ve clearly seen your initial stance, and now also know that it hasn’t evolved at all, which is fine, but don’t come on here acting like you’re actually addressing me. In reality, all that you’re doing is evading, spreading rubbish, and glorifying misinformation while in the same breath vaguely talking about my “misinformation” and failing to respond to any of it.
@PameAshley Pam (if this is really you), It’s sad that you opted to come and post here, but yet didn’t reference or focus your response towards anything that I actually said. Literally anything. My response to your piece WAS NOT “blind defense,” nor was it “worship,” nor was it “idoltry.” You cop-out really quick when confronted with rational dialogue. What I’ve said here in response to your op-ed wasn’t a pack of “myths” or a pack of “lies.” But that’s all that you’re clearly set on acknowledging them as, as you apparently have no way to respond to what I’ve said outside of just vaguely doubling down on broad-brushing hate. You talk about those that are “innocent,” yet have no regard for any dog that resembles a Pit Bull and that also happens to be innocent themselves. Their innocence doesn’t matter to you. I have no idea what types of comments (as a whole) you’ve received from the “Pit Bull community” as you like to say, but I can’t be held accountable for anyone else’s actions outside of my own. I certainly never “blamed the victim,” I actually started my letter by apologizing to the victim for their loss. If you are actually implying that I’m part of this “real evil presence that relishes in the torture and death of others,” well, then you’re so beyond rational and sane that I won’t even bother going forward with you… You’re acting like a compartmentalized person who thinks that large groups should be punished for the actions of the few, and with no regard to the individual. That is dangerous, not my dog. Again, either respond to what I’ve personally said here or just don’t bother to post… After all, this started as a letter addressed to YOU. I’ve clearly seen your initial stance, and now also know that it hasn’t evolved at all, which is fine, but just don’t come on here acting like you’re actually addressing me. In reality, all that you’re doing is evading, spreading rubbish, and glorifying misinformation while in the same breath vaguely talking about my so-called “misinformation” and failing to respond to any of it.
@JoshLiddySwayLove Sadly, it is those of you who are okay with the thousands of pitbull victims killed and maimed just to brag that not all of them are guilty. . There was a reason for making laws against drunk driving even though only a minute percentage of drunk drivers actually have wrecks that kill or maim people and animals. I was open to pitbulls during the two years Bleu’s killers came into my yard, ate with Bleu, was petted by me, and I had no clue about pitbull reputation/genetics/anything at all. If I had been brought into an argument against pitbulls during that time, I would probably have said that I knew two sweet pitbulls that licked my hands whenever I walked in the yard with them, but then I would have been speaking out of uninformed, uneducated ignorance.
That is no longer true. One of my favorite quotes is If you only want to know what you already know then you will always be what you already are. I wanted to know what the hell prompted two neighbor dogs to torture and kill my gentle pet in my yard so I began researching, and I am no longer who I was. Now I am aware of the threat these dogs pose to innocents and there is no unknowing it.
No words from any of you will bring Bleu back to life, erase our memories of his bloodied, broken body and the smell of blood and feces, and the sounds of his wheezing and air escaping the 4 inch hole in his chest. Nor will your words replace my friend, Tamie’s son, Zach’s face or erase the trauma they suffered from a friend’s pitbull that they knew to be the sweetest dog.
None of your words do any good toward making your bad owners good ones and you are not trying to educate or monitor pitbull ownership. You are your own worst enemies and refuse to know it.
Your tired, empty arguments mean nothing to those of us who are victims of pitbull attack.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove Pam, it is fine if you are only interested in an emotional tirade full of anecdotes – but you really shouldn’t continue to claim scientific facts, data, research, genetics or anything else having to do with empirical knowledge if you are unwilling to back it up with sources.
I will continue to await the evidence you claim to have that supports your very strong opinion, but suspect it will never come.
@DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove Just what part of what I said do you doubt? Is my dog dead from pitbull attack? Yes. Am I now in a support group of hundreds of victims of pitbull attack? Yes. Have I personally seen the gruesome injuries inflicted by pitbulls? Yes. Do statistics on either side of the argument mean a thing? No.
Reality is their attacks are horrific, life-altering. Reality is people who have not been affected and refuse to acknowledge that they are not omnipotent and that people and animals suffer as a result of pitbull attack are harming their own chosen breed’s chance of survival by not keeping them in a position of being unable to attack.
Reality is pitbull advocates should tell each other the truth they already know about the potential for attack and educate owners on containment and liability insurance and the very real chance of lawsuit if attack occurs…Bleu’s killers are learning that lesson the very, very, very hard way.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove “Do statistics on either side of the argument mean a thing? No.”
That is a shocking statement. One that no “educated” person who cares about “research” and “scientific facts” would make. That is the emotional statement of an individual who is too personally affected by the topic to have a rational, meaningful conversation about it.
And I understand why that is, I do. If the same had happened to one of my dogs, I would be just as upset, just as emotional, and just as willing to say “damn the facts!”
But that is also why I would remove myself from the conversation.
I’m sorry Pam, but to claim that science and the facts are on your side, and to justify the type of things you have been saying, you are going to need to back it up with something more than just your individual experience (as horrible as it was) or the fact that you have found a support group.
@DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove As a 35 year medical professional, you can’t tell me a thing about research and facts. My statement is meant to say that people choose to believe what they want regardless of statistics…talk about closed minded! I am far removed from emotional psychosis as I am practiced in dealing with life and death on a daily basis in my career. You can try to paint pitbull victims who have found out the truth with your words any way you wish but we know the truth and you don’t. Sad for you and your breed’s future victims.
I’m not wasting any more time trying to help you.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove “we know the truth and you don’t”
You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t just simply accept that you “know the truth” without any actual evidence to support the claim.
As a medical professional would you make a life or death decision based solely on the type “evidence” you have presented here? I sure hope not, for the sake of the people who count on you.
And implying that people will somehow ignore the evidence and choose to believe what they want is a cop out. If that is the case then you lose nothing by citing your sources… worst case scenario the conversation continues to go nowhere. Best case? You begin to make your case to those of us who do care about factual evidence. And I assure you I am one of those people.
So, I’m here, I’m trying to engage you in a conversation about facts and evidence and I have simply been asking you to show me the facts that you say back up your position. I’ll ask again, show me the scientific sources you claimed to have, I am genuinely interested in reading them.
@PameAshley Sadly, your biggest problem remains that you view everyone in whole groups. Even the way that you continue to talk to me now, saying things like “your bad owners” and so forth, as if we are all teams and I vouch for every single person just because they may own a Pit Bull. If you’ve actually listened to an inkling of what I’ve ever said it isn’t about the dog, it’s about the person. Bad owners of any breed are not people I associate with or defend. There’s many bad, unfit, irresponsible, and down right abusive people that do have pitties. I don’t co-sign for them, they aren’t on my “team.” Get out of your group-think mentality. Also, your self-admitted favorite quote is highly ironic, considering your narrow-minded and tyrannical viewpoints towards groups of things instead of focusing on actual perpetrators. You’re showing your own holes here.
@PameAshley @DaveNethaway Pam, you’re quite presumptive in your comments. You know nothing about me or how I personally treat my dogs, nor how they’re trained or their behaviors. Acknowledging that fact, either change your tone or just continue looking like a fucking asshole. You don’t respond to a damn thing. And you put words into my mouth instead, as a way to redirect the conversation. I never once denied who or what killed your dog. You clearly don’t read. With that being said, I can (and have, although I doubt you looked) show you buckets of examples where people have been MAULED by other breeds of dogs, causing severe and outrageous damage that you claim “only Pit Bulls can cause.” You are a sad woman. I’m truly sorry for your loss, but your dog is likely rolling over in his grave knowing that you are now hell-bent on targeting millions of innocent animals because of what they look like.
@PameAshley @DaveNethaway Pam, then just feel free to leave. You’re not focused, irrational, and highly evasive. Thanks for the discussion.
@PameAshley I am truly sorry for your loss, but most of us Pit bull owners don’t really need to prove anything to you because you aren’t open minded enough to listen.
I truly feel sorry for your loss, but your ignorance is amazing. You are filling the internet with misinformation, lies and stuff very very far from the truth.
There are far more than ‘100s’ of Pit bull types doing GOOD in this country than the ‘100s’ owned by irresponsible owners doing bad. There are Pit bulls doing Therapy, Search & Rescue, Drug and Bomb sniffing dogs, just to name a few.
I truly hate it for you and your family the loss suffered at the hands of an irresponsible HUMAN who couldn’t be responsible for their dog. Please blame the HUMAN and not the entire breed of dogs who are INNOCENT themselves.
@PameAshley
Pam,
Please don’t give up. Just trust that there are thousands of dog-lovers that agree and support your perspective. This board, sadly, is filled with angry, defensive, grossly misinformed and apparently semi-literate people (sorry folks, but it’s true). Good luck to all of ya.
@PNB And there’s millions that don’t. But in regards to you and your activity on this board… I responded directly to you, point by point, multiple months ago. And guess what? You disappeared, gave nothing whatsoever in response back to what was communicated. But yet, you can come back on a drop of a dime to vaguely call everyone names, speak to their lack of literacy, and take net-pleasure in baseless mocking? Nice work, speaks volumes.
I sent this message to Pame facebook page:
I hope someday soon God opens your eyes Pame to your hatred and how wrong you are. I am truly sorry about your dog. All dogs from the Pomerainian who killed a brand new baby to the Weimaraner in this article are capable of causing injury or death, Not just the Pit. Wanting to eliminate the breed just shows your lack of compaction and sorry to say intelligence on the matter. It is actually you spreading your Hate and Unhappiness to others because something bad has befallen you and now all that are of the breed that hurt you should die in your opinion??? So that their owners can suffer like you have??? Have you thought of how I might feel about having my family members killed for no other reason but their breed? Proper socialization and training and not allowing humans to use them or train them for the wrong things is key! Not extermination!! Have you thought about going after the fighting rings, the illegal breeders, the people behind exploiting this breed for their own cowardly or illegal ways rather than going after the breed they hurt? Maybe you should!
The Miami Herald Posted on Thu, Dec. 24, 2009 Weimaraner euthanized after killing toddler The Associated Press A family dog that bit and killed a 2-year-old Cape Coral boy has been euthanized. Lee County Animal Services reports that the 8-year-old Weimaraner, having killed a child, was not suitable for not suitable for adoption and was euthanized Wednesday. Authorities say Liam Perk was walking by the dog Tuesday morning when, without any apparent provocation, he was bitten in the neck. His family called 911 and the boy was taken to a nearby hospital. The toddler was pronounced dead less than an hour later. The Weimaraner and another dog not involved in the attack were both taken by animal services, but the other animal has been returned to the home. Weimaraners aren’t considered a violent breed and are usually good around children. © 2009 Miami Herald Media Company. All Rights Reserved. http://www.miamiherald.com/ Dog euthanized after killing toddler – 12/24/2009 – MiamiHerald.com Page 1 of 1 http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/v-print/story/1397001.html 12/28/2009
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Josh, once again, brilliant. Your words are so empowering as a pit bull advocate and you do justice to the breed as a spokesperson. I have taken a personal interest in this exchange as my first “child” was a weimaraner. The love of my life…. Interestingly enough, she encountered a wonderful, well-balanced pit bull while at the dog park one day and for no apparent reason, SHE viciously attacked HIM. Heidi was not aggressive in nature normally and this had never happened before but for some reason that day, she went off. As dogs can and do. What’s interesting about it is that the pit bull DIDN’T even TRY to defend itself. This dog was instantly attacked out of nowhere and under circumstances where it would have been justified, it didn’t even fight back!! Heidi, my weim, has sadly since passed through my life. Luckily for me, I have a new child in my life now. Her name is Nina and she’s a pit bull. Cheers Josh. Keep up the good work!
@RobinZ @PameAshley Pam, please give us your thoughts in regards to what Robin wrote…
@RobinZ There’s nothing for me to say to this. If this happened, it was a terrible thing for a young child to witness. I don’t defend weimaraners who have bitten or attacked, why would I? If they attacked in the numbers of pitbulls, I’d be on board for regulating them too.
By the way, I never saw the ongoing former comments mentioned after the initial feedback. I was brought to this thread by updating my e-mail account and there were comments sent to my e-mail from this group.
When I am home, I will post the names of the fatalities in the past year. However, if pitbull advocates were open-minded, the news stories are readily available and easily verifiable. I know, I was one and now I reach out to victims and bring them into our support group. Purposely closing one’s eyes does not make the bad go away.
@PameAshley @RobinZ Oh, but you closing your eyes to the reality that millions of innocent pits (and mixes) happily exist as we speak is off the table though, right? That certainly doesn’t make that overwhelming good go away either, now does it? You can try and dedicate your life to annihilating groups, if that’s where your honor system guides you.I’d just like to personally invite you out to Los Angeles, California so that you could accompany me on a visit to one of the local shelters out here. I’d love to film you actually meeting the dogs, and then interview you on camera claiming that each of those individuals should be euthanized and for whatever reasons you’d love to openly justify on film. We could even speak to the shelter staff and see if they’d be willing to let you stand in the room while they euthanized some. I’d be willing to film that too, and then put whatever message you’d like to attach to it out and into the world unedited. We’d then see where the community and where the population as a whole stands. We’d likely quickly see.
@PameAshley @RobinZ Oh, but you closing your eyes to the reality that millions of innocent pits (and mixes) happily exist as we speak is off the table though, right? That certainly doesn’t make that overwhelming good go away either, now does it? You can try and dedicate your life to annihilating groups, if that’s where your honor system guides you.
I’d just like to personally invite you out to Los Angeles, California so that you could accompany me on a visit to one of the local shelters out here. I’d love to film you actually meeting the dogs, and then interview you on camera claiming that each of those individuals should be euthanized and for whatever reasons you’d love to openly justify on film. We could even speak to the shelter staff and see if they’d be willing to let you stand in the room while they euthanized some. I’d be willing to film that too, and then put whatever message you’d like to attach to it out and into the world unedited. We’d then see where the community and where the population as a whole stands. We’d likely quickly see.
@PameAshley Oh, but you closing your eyes to the reality that millions of innocent pits (and mixes) happily exist as we speak is off the table though, right? That certainly doesn’t make that overwhelming good go away either, now does it? You can try and dedicate your life to annihilating groups, if that’s where your honor system guides you.
I’d just like to personally invite you out to Los Angeles, California so that you could accompany me on a visit to one of the local shelters out here. I’d love to film you actually meeting the dogs, and then interview you on camera claiming that each of those individuals should be euthanized and for whatever reasons you’d like to openly justify on film. We could even speak to the shelter staff and see if they’d be willing to let you stand in the room while they euthanized some. I’d be willing to film that too, and then put whatever message you’d like to attach to it out and into the world unedited. We’d then see where the community and where the population as a whole stands. We’d likely quickly see.
She won’t take you up in that offer even if you paid for her flight and hotel. She isn’t open to seeing it from any other way. Murdering more innocent dogs is her only answer to a human created problem. Right there says it all.
@JoshLiddySwayLove Don’t assume because something is specifically not said that it doesn’t exist. In my learning process following Bleu’s death, I did spend time at both a nearby shelter and pound where a friend, a veterinarian, examines and treats the animals on arrival, neuters and vaccinates the adoptees, and orders the drugs for euthanasia. I did talk with the workers and inmates there who care for the animals and they gave much insight from their experiences. I have watched euthanasias, both gas and individual lethal injection. I’ve pulled the dead animals out and put them in the incinerators. None of that is easy, nor should it ever be. Being a hard job to do makes those whose task it is to perform it very strong people. Instead of thinking that all the unwanted animals should be spared death and doomed to lengthy incarcerations..the type of which makes already aggressive animals even more so; what I learned is euthanasia is the best alternative to suffering , and euthanasia is absolutely necessary to any animal that has attacked a person or other animal unprovoked.
Neutering is essential. I haven’t owned any animal in 25 years that I did not have neutered. Failure to neuter pets except in instances of legitimate, healthy breeding for domestic pets is irresponsible and cruel to the animals and their offspring who may be unable to be adopted by good owners. Any pet owner who cannot afford or does not want to get their pet neutered should not have a pet. They are not good pet owners regardless of breed.
As to the pitbull issue. Overwhelmingly, the workers at the two shelters I volunteered at said they have had more aggression issues with 1) pitbulls and their mixes, 2) rottweilers, 3) chows, 4) german shepherds..in that order. This is from the workers who have greater than 10 years working at the shelters.
An inmate in for 20 years for armed robbery said he had his mother bring his 3 pitbulls to the pound where they were euthanized at his request. He said he knew they had fought viciously among themselves before he was incarcerated and, after seeing the injuries some of the pits at the shelter had done to other animals, he did not want his pits around his children or others in the neighborhood and he was afraid his mother wouldn’t be able to keep them up.
After 8 years of college, I never presume to have knowledge of a subject that I have not studied personally. Obviously, the people in this group are hesitant to research news stories for pitbull attack because they know what they’ll find and they don’t want to know. Remember, up to the millisecond when a pitbull’s teeth sink into human or animal flesh, it was a nanny dog with a good owner…then in that millisecond, it is a poor pit with a bad owner.
The pit owners whose pits killed Bleu were part of this group. You would know them by name if I posted it but, due to litigation, I cannot. They were posting the exact stuff you guys have posted in response to me. I’ve looked back several years at pitbull sites and have found them all over the internet…shame for them that anything on the internet is there forever and usable in court.
I didn’t start out to post such a long response but unless you really have sympathy and, more importantly, empathy for victims of dog attack, you cannot be convinced by the horror of someone else’s experience. My support group has many members who have never been victim of pitbull attack and many used to be as passionate in their defense of pitbull bad rap as many of you are; however, they were the ones who researched with an open mind and found that they had been wrong. They are some of the strongest shoulders in our group. Very apologetic for their past bashing of people already traumatized by attack.
I believe if a person believes the truth, then they can hear all arguments against it, can see all pictures contradicting it, can touch all evidence renouncing it and still come away knowing it is still the truth, but if a person believes a lie, then when they hear the arguments, see the pictures, and touch the evidence, their mind will be changed and they will grow as a person.
I hope great growth for you. We need your help to prevent future victims of pitbull attack.
@PameAshley So, let me get this straight…judging from your remarks, you get your information on “pit bull attacks” solely, or at least primarily, from media accounts?? Is that right? You can’t honestly think that’s anywhere near a legitimate source of accurate information reflecting ALL dog attacks and bites in the country, can you? To beging with, the media is NOTORIOUS for passing over dog attacks that AREN’T “pit bulls” because the headlines don’t get them as much attention as when they can say (and often wrongly, because often the dogs turn out to NOT actually be “pit bulls”) “PIT BULL ATTACKS”. Using media reports as your source of information as to the frequency of dog attacks by breed is ridiculous, to be perfectly honest. I’ve worked and lived with dogs for over 20 years, including in vet care, boarding, training, and grooming, as well as my current job as a dog walker/pet sitter. I’ve NEVER, not ONCE, met a pit bull that gave me the least concern for my safety. And only run across a few that I had any worries of aggression towards other animals. But about half the dogs I’ve worked with, regardless of breed, did or had potential for animal aggression. REGARDLESS OF BREED. Furthermore, other than those you cited as having spoken with, I’ve never come across any animal care professional who had any fear of pit bulls, and in fact tend to prefer to work with them because they tend to be the LEAST likely to bite you when you have to do things that might make them uncomfortable, such as giving shots or holding them for vet care. Your arguments cite no actual hard statistics from legitimate sources. You are on a vendetta, it is plain to see. You do not listen to anything that has been said to you because you don’t WANT to hear it. You want to believe that what happened to your dog could have been prevented if pit bulls didn’t exist. But if pit bulls didn’t exist, there would be many people who would be dead now, as they have been cited in numerous hero dog stories (bet you didn’t bother to look those up while looking at media reports on pit bulls, huh?), they serve as therapy dogs, as search and rescue dogs, as police dogs, as service dogs to the handicapped. They live in harmony and happiness with other animals (my own Amstaff, who died a few years ago from old age, helped me with many foster dogs who came through my house during her life with me, she also served as our ‘tester dog’ when I worked at a boarding kennel, because she REFUSED to ever get in a fight with another dog, no matter how she was provoked), they bring joy and love to their human companions, both adults and children, and they are beloved by many. Please stop and reassess exactly why you have such an ill intent towards so many dogs who have never done a thing wrong, when what happened to your dog was not their fault.
@AnnieCargirl I have personal experience, I know people with personal experience, News stories with pictures to see what breed is responsible, I am hearing over and over from the pitbull idolators here that you want me to believe you over what I have seen to be the truth yet all you can relate is your non-experience.
If I told you I had never known anyone to get their fingers cut off in a blender, would you trust that to put yours in one? Your tired old jargon about sweet pitbulls means nothing to people who know the truth. Now I know that news channels market to the ignorant who don’t want to know the truth of politics or life or anything else, but pictures are worth everything. Every time I read about a dog attack of any kind, I message the source requesting PICTURES OF THE DOG. Over and over here, I have said that pitbulls are dangerous because I know they are from legitimate research; however, I would be as passionate against any other breed if they attacked as viciously and as often. Not a single one of anyone here’s comment have offered even one provable statistic disproving fact. You just parrot each other. How much actual research have you done? It is clear that no one here wants to be correct, you just want to gamble that you won’t be the next front page news in a legitimate news source.
@PameAshley You have personal experience? SO DO ALL OF US who are passionate about pit bulls. That is WHY we are so passionate about them. Because we have so much personal experience with them…with them being incredible, loving, happy, amazing dogs. Pictures of the dog do NOT mean it is actually a “pit bull”. DNA tests might convince me a bit more. Take a look at the pics of the dogs that were DNA tested an one animal shelter after workers there labeled them as “pit bulls”…you will find that even someone who works with dogs EVERY DAY often cannot correctly identify the ACTUAL “pit bulls”. And if they can’t, you certainly can’t, either, just from a picture especially. Your argument have NO BASIS IN ACTUAL FACTS. They are anecdotal at best. Guess what, we out here all have our own anecdotal input as well as to how great pit bulls can be. And usually are. Why haven’t we shown you “provable statistics disproving” your anecdotal evidence? Because of the same reason YOU can’t show us any “provable statistics” showing that pit bulls bite more often than any other dog…BECAUSE THERE ARE NO LEGITIMATE STATISTICS proving what breeds of dogs bite more often!! http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/03/18/Many-shelter-dogs-mislabeled-pit-bulls.html
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove
“I believe if a person believes the truth, then they can hear all arguments against it, can see all pictures contradicting it, can touch all evidence renouncing it and still come away knowing it is still the truth”
Bullseye. And there is the root of the problem. You “believe” in something and have decided that no matter what, it must be true.
But that is not what truth is Pam. At least not by any educated, scientific, researchable standard… which are qualities you came here preaching.
Believing in something no matter how valid the arguments and evidence against it is not “truth”…. at best it is faith, or opinion. At worst, it is stubborn, willful ignorance.
Again I will say it. The only verifiable, peer reviewed data presented in this discussion so far contradicts your position. By contrast, all you have brought to the table thus far is emotion and anecdotes (I know someone… I talked to someone… he said… she said…)
We still await your sources.
And speaking of sources, if you would be so kind, please provide the names of the two shelters where you volunteered. That is certainly verifiable, and might finally be a start to putting some facts behind your comments. I will personally do the groundwork in checking into your claims about your activities there, and the “overwhelming” sentiment of workers about dog breeds.
@AnnieCargirl A very wise man once said, “Never pursue trying to help an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience in stupidity.” This is where I see my attempt to help you is headed and I’m not going there.
I have known of people driving drunk for years without being alcohol breath-tested to prove they were drunk, who didn’t kill anybody, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t drunk or weren’t dangerous. Your ignorant, backward statements fall in that category of defending killers with nothing. Shame on you as a human being. You should be trying to help society instead of endangering even more. If you think “in you mind” is more reliable information than pictures and interviews from people like me who have seen pitbull attack death with my own eyes, then you will have a lot of regrets in your life. I am here to help you when you realize you need help.
@DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove I guess now you are going to say my dog is still alive and happy running around in the yard and I just don’t know it. I am not on trial here, you are. Your breed is daily attacking and mutilating and killing and, if you don’t know it, you aren’t trying to know. By the way, I asked my friend if her son’s face grew back by itself since personal experience must not count in pitbull fairy land.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove
“I am not on trial here, you are.”
No one is on trial here, Pam. You are, however, engaging in a conversation and you continue to make statements without evidence and to insist that facts are on your side. All I am asking is for you to provide those facts.
“Your breed is daily attacking and mutilating and killing and, if you don’t know it, you aren’t trying to know.”
I’m trying to know Pam, in fact, I keep asking you… I would almost call it begging you at this point… to provide verifiable evidence so that I can know this.
You refuse.
At this point, I have to assume it is because you have no such evidence… and that likely, no such evidence exists.
And no Pam, no one is claiming that your dog is still alive, or that some boy didn’t experience a dog bite. What I am claiming, very simply, is that a handful of stories do not constitute scientific evidence. Certainly you must understand why that is, right? You do understand the difference between data sets, and personal experiences… between statistical analysis, and news headlines… right? This is intro to scientific method kind of stuff. Once you claimed you were a medical professional I assumed we could leapfrog that part of the conversation. I guess I was wrong.
@DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove What I am hearing here is you aren’t internet capable. Okay, just go to any search engine and type in “dog attack” or “dog death” or “dog bite” or “dog killed” or any of thousands of word searches and click on “Search”. That is all that has to be done to begin learning the truth. I didn’t realize you didn’t know how to use the internet, I’m sorry I didn’t teach you earlier.
When the results open, click on first one then the other then the other then the other then the other, etc.
If the search isn’t researchable by multiple sources then you might want to refine your search with key words like the actual names of victims, like the names of law enforcement officers who had to kill the offending animal, like the city search for dog attacks, like the lawsuit findings following attack, like the child killed/injured by dog attacks whose faces were left lying on the ground, like the pet videos of cats/dogs/people being mutilated on video for all to see what dog is doing this, like the parents whose arms were left meatless trying to protect their children or animals.
If no one can identify a pitbull in an attack when it happens, why are any of you defending them? since they are nonexistent? YEAH, how do you have the secret, magical way of knowing the god dog above all humanity yet when one of them attacks and is photographed and video recorded, the media and victims are not capable of identifying them?
Take the blinders off and research it yourself…lazy. Only lazy will dip your hands in your chip and dips and defend killers and expect others to do your research. Lazy.
You don’t realize that all your senselessness will hurt some of you personally in the future yet you continue feeding into it for recording purposes. It will be impossible to say your pitbulls were innocent animals when there will be record of your endless defense of their inability to attack anything, anywhere, any time despite being told differently.
Some of you will see your posts reach up and bite you (definitely more gently than a pitbull) in the future.
I would suggest you research the “oh so awful internet resource of the entire world at your fingertips” to let you know how vulnerable you are if you aren’t keeping your pits completely restrained from getting off your property.
.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove
Pam, yes, I do know how to use the internet. In fact, it was the internet that allowed me to find the peer reviewed study on this subject matter that I previously sourced. The study that calls into question the validity of your position.
So, my question for you is, do YOU know that Google search results do not constitute scientific evidence?
When you said you were educated and had researched this subject and found scientific evidence to support the position you were advocating… I was extremely interested in what you had to say. I (wrongly) assumed you meant that you found actual scientific, academic evidence that I have not seen.
By the way, what kind of medical professional are you? And say you went to school for 8 years?
Had I known this whole time that you were basing your entire argument around news headlines found in a google search, I probably wouldn’t have wasted either of our time. I apologize. I thought I was engaging someone who was similarly interested in an analysis of the evidence, data, and facts of this subject matter… instead I’ve been engaging someone who doesn’t understand the basic fundamentals of what constitutes evidence, data or facts.
I am not at all interested in playing a game of let’s google a subject and jump to conclusions based on the results. I doubt any serious person would be.
@PameAshley C’mon now… You say, “Euthanasia is absolutely necessary to any animal that has attacked a person or other animal unprovoked.” Okay… But don’t you want euthanasia for ALL Pit Bulls, whether they’ve attacked or not (and 99% of them haven’t)? Don’t you want euthanasia for ALL Pit Bulls, whether their “attack” was provoked or unprovoked? So what exactly are you talking about? It’s like you have to draw down your irrationality as to appear more stable while addressing me. The only problem is, you’ve made your stances abundantly clear, so you can’t now put on a show for the browsing majority who haven’t been privy to the full context of your arguments.
Also, regarding the neutering thing… I’m for anyone getting their dogs spayed or neutered, regardless of breed. Just not laws that target only Pit Bulls, with the admitted desire of phasing them out. So your point is what? Because the only Pit Bulls you can ever source who have “attacked” a person are the UN-NEUTERED, CHAINED AND/OR ROAMING ONES.
In regards to your “facts”: You’re sourcing individual happenings (inmate etc.) as if it’s the law of the land for everyone, as if it’s just inevitably that way in every instance. No. Sorry. You fail to even acknowledge the well-behaved pits of the world, instead leaning on the myth that they are all loose cannons that are ready to explode at any second.
While sourcing your support group you say things like, “The ones with an open mind were the ones that actually researched and found out that they were wrong.” Okay, well what about the ones that researched and didn’t come to the same conclusion as you? Are they then no longer considered as having “open minds”? Funny that only you get to make that determination.
Again, and this can’t be underscored enough: You still fail to even remotely recognize the millions of innocent Pit Bulls in all of this. Then we wander into the topic of what is a “mix,” and you are potentially ignoring multiple millions more. Dogs that have done nothing. It shatters everything that you say. You want everyone to focus on singular happenings, and shout from the top of a building that this “proves” that they are all universally like whatever you say that they are. But yet, you refuse to focus on singular happenings that thoroughly prove your opinion 100% wrong. And those happenings happen FAR MORE FREQUENTLY. You explained away the Weimaraner killing the child by saying that, well, it doesn’t happen “enough,” and if it did then you’d be in favor of regulating them too. But stunningly can’t take that same line of thought and apply it to my argument here, where the existence of well-behaved and loved pits thoroughly trounces any list of transgressions made by them that you’d ever want to cite. That is utter hypocrisy. That is failing, and being unfair and irrational. You can’t see it, but just know that that’s what it is. It’s really something to behold, especially when you’re up on your high-horse talking about “truth” and “what is reality” and how everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.
One last thing… Don’t talk to me and then roundaboutly stray off into terms like “the people in this group,” as if they represent me as an individual. If you address me personally then let’s keep to that.
@PameAshley @AnnieCargirl So no one but you has this “experience” that you speak of, Pam? You are quite presumptuous. Your blender analogy is a huge fail, because by your admitted Pit Bull “logic” you’d just ban the blender instead of focusing on the fact that someone opted to put their finger in it. And your mention about media and the acknowledgement of who they market towards is legitimate, but yet, they all of a sudden do an amazing job when concerning Pit Bulls and Pit Bulls only? How convenient for your arguments. Pam, your responses are literally a total joke. So foolish.
@PameAshley @AnnieCargirl Pam, your tone is now entering shamockery status. We are all idiots, you are the chosen one. We need to seek you when we finally realize that we need help. Shame on us, for just wanting people to be judged by their individual character and by their own actions. Shame on anyone who dares to defend any Pit Bull. Shame on us. You are such a coward to turn your grief into this witch hunt. Such a small person that reveals.
@PameAshley @DaveNethaway Pam, what in the hell are you talking about? I’ve never disregarded any victim of anything. You just don’t want to hear that, because it eradicates your mindless stance. You also don’t want to hear that your vague targeting creates and then punishes millions of victims as well, in an effort to run pre-crime in order to protect the dog community from itself. But yet, the dogs don’t count as victims because only the false god, Pam, gets to decipher that apparently.
@PameAshley@DaveNethaway Dave, she doesn’t want to provide the sources, even though earlier she said that she would. Instead, she wants you to actually find them, and then just blindly believe everything that you read, as if that’s the source. All that, even though earlier she acknowledged above that the media targets the uneducated, but that is apparently only true in every facet of life “other than” Pit Bulls. In regards to Pit Bulls, everything that comes up into a search engine and shown on a television is true.
Also, she continues to FAIL TO ADDRESS the whole treatment aspect of things. She cannot source 1 instance where a neutered/spayed, non-chained, non-free roaming Pit Bull has ever killed or even attacked anyone. She can’t do it. And even outside of those terms (which is what should truly matter), she still can’t even provide you with what she said that she would.
Then she wants to call you “lazy” for not finding her source! LMAO. Pam, you’re sad.
@PameAshley Also, should I then assume that you’ve declined my invitation?
@PameAshley Wow, you are incredibly condescending, especially for someone who has yet to show a single, valid, legitimate, source-cited FACT. Josh is right, you sound just like all the bible-thumpers who are so very convinced that everyone but they are entirely wrong based on nothing but their own beliefs and faith, even in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary. You are the one trying to push for the deaths of millions of dogs who have never done a thing wrong in their lives, lives that are precious, as precious to their families as your dog was to you. Your grief has made you into a monster.
@PameAshley @DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove Once again, all you are doing is relying on MEDIA sources, NOT factual, statistical, provable, REAL evidence. Just because you read it on the internet, sweetie, doesn’t mean it’s the truth.
@JoshLiddySwayLove @DaveNethaway You are lazy or you would know differently from what you spout. You do not want to know the truth or you would know it. I have told you my personal experience yet that was not enough to convince you that I have had a horrible pitbull experience. I’ve been told here to visit shelters to get to know them…I had already done that on my own when I didn’t know what to think after Bleu’s death because I was so viciously attacked in my newspaper articles by people who had never been affected by pitbull horror, but I and thousands like me know now what has to be done and are doing it. I told you I had worked in a shelter and pound but you wanted to know which one/where…and if I did you would come back with who did I work with, what days did I work. You are the bad, bad pit owners that you talk about. If your dogs have any part of the hatred in them that you display toward me and others who have been harmed either physically or emotionally by pitbulls, then they are the very ones who will jerk the leash from your hands to kill another pet, bolt from your door after someone walking in the street, grab up a pet in petsmart/petco,The worst part is you don’t know what you don’t know. I know what you don’t know, but you won’t be taught. That makes you fools and your dogs potentially dangerous…just like Darla Napora’s.
@AnnieCargirl @DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove Where, dear, do you get your statistics?
@JoshLiddySwayLove @DaveNethaway You are right about one thing, I don’t look to find an innocent nonchained neutered pitbull. There are far too many pitbull attacks every day with real families affected who need help from me and my friends. We are concerned about the safety of the general public because owners like you here aren’t taking any steps toward preventing future attacks. Instead you jaw-flap a bunch of garbage, pick over innuendo ignoring the context, and you wait, as we do, for the next attack on the news so you can go to the news site and tell the horrified vicitms to come pet your nanny dog (if they have a hand left) so they’ll change their mind about pitbulls. You say Internet isn’t a reliable source for statistics….WHAT??? The whole entire internet, billions and billions of bytes of information posted from millions of sources on any and every conceivable thing in the universe DOES NOT CONTAIN ANY TRUTH???? And where do you people communicate, hmmm?, duh, I believe we are on the internet, aren’t we? Does that mean everything you say here is not the truth..thought so.
@JoshLiddySwayLove Why would I even consider it? That was an insult with no redeemable value.
@PameAshley “A very wise man once said, “Never pursue trying to help an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience in stupidity.””
The very same thing can be said for YOU Mrs. Ashley. YOU refuse to see anything but what YOU wish to see. There is no changing someone who’s soo very narrow minded as you.
I follow this because I am a Pit bull owner. I have rescued dozens, transported more than a 100, and I have a 2yr old living in the same house as 2 Pit bulls; BOTH dogs did not start their lives out with us, and I do not know their true history. But what I do know is this … I will not set them up for failure; I train, I vet, I love and care for, I walk them on a leash, they travel with us when possible and they meet anyone and everyone willing and/or interested, and I have taught my child to RESPECT them and their space.
And RESPECT is what you are lacking. YOU want to take MY RIGHTs away from me, YOU want to take my son’s RIGHTS away from him. YOU openly discriminate against Dogs who have NEVER and will NEVER maul, kill, or DISRESPECT you.
@PameAshley
Where, dear, do you get your statistics? Please post links. We all know you won’t, because they simply do not exsist.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove
“I have told you my personal experience yet that was not enough to convince you that I have had a horrible pitbull experience. ”
Pam, this is not true… and you know it. No one here has suggested that you did not have a horrible experience.
What we are telling you is that your individual bad experience is evidence of only one thing… that you had an individual bad experience.
Even when combined with a handful of other anecdotal experiences, this does not, in any way shape or form, constitute scientific evidence that would allow us to jump to the larger conclusion that an entire type of animal is inherently dangerous.
Here is a very simple, and very blunt, example of why your reasoning is both flawed, and itself dangerous: If you were personally assaulted by a black man, and then did a google search and found news headlines that said other people were also assaulted by black men, would you jump to the conclusion that all black men are dangerous?
And would you state that “science” proves it?
Of course not. That would be silly.
But that is exactly what you are doing here with this subject.
Again, your understanding of the basic fundamentals of science and data are extremely limited. So I’ll ask again, what kind of medical professional are you? This sort of stuff is taught early on in intro to science courses, and is something that real medical professionals deal with on a daily basis… so I’m beginning to question that claim as well.
I’m going to sink to your insane logic for shits and giggles for a second. You are spouting out about potential threats (even as statitistics prove they are minimal enough that you’d more likely get hit in the head with a coconut than be mauled by a pit bull) then perhaps you should look up how many innocent people/children get killed by a vehicle each day and prove better with your time to rid the world of all vehicles. I used this example as you seem to deem pit bulls as people killers, created “things” by humans that cause a threat to the general public and not a beloved pet as you seem to describe all other dogs besides the pit bull. Your “threat” excuse to justify your mass murder mission just seems so silly when you sit back and take a look around at ACTUAL threats our people/children face each day.
@DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove Wow, what broad assumptions based on almost nothing. I’d be one of those medical professionals that works with organ transplants, Level I trauma, and teach Advanced Life Support..yeah one of those highly educated ones. You’ve embarrassed yourself over and over and over. However, a psychologist friend has been monitoring these exchanges and his opinion is that your grasp of reality is dependent on what supports your beliefs; therefore you are beyond help.
@PameAshley @DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove
SERIOUSLY? you use the term ‘boad assumptions’ and you sit on your high horse and ASSume my Pit bull dogs will kill someone or something?! Are you seeing yourself for what you truly are?
@KBaker71 @DaveNethaway @JoshLiddySwayLove Since you asked about specifics of fatal dog attacks and how many are attributed to pitbulls, I invite you to my Facebook page to read what we are always finding to be an incomplete list as some deaths never make it to credible news sources. You are beyond human help if you can read the details of these deaths and how many are the result of pitbulls. The number fluctuates with details emerging and is probably substantially lower than what is posted here. I wish no further contact with you after this. I’ve tried to help you but you are now a waste of time.
LOL, you are the only one basing this entire discussion off your emotional experience and have still not acknowledged 99% of what has been said in facts or rebuttals to your emotional rants. I just have to laugh now.
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove
So are you an ER doctor Pam? A surgeon? A general practitioner? A physician’s assistant? A nurse? An EMT? Or the receptionist?
What is your title at the Level I Trauma center where you work?
It is a pretty simple question, but you keep avoiding a clear answer. The only reason I can imagine you would do so is that your professional is either a fabrication, or that it has been greatly exaggerated. Both of which would explain your lack of understanding about what would constitute scientific evidence and data.
Can you imagine if your Dr. treated you based on the conclusions he made from a Google search? Yikes!
And I must say that I am not at all surprised that you reference yet another “friend” in this discussion… this time a psychologist.
Since you love Google so much and believe everything it tells you, I suggest you Google “anecdotal evidence”
Google searches, Facebook pages, and your “friends” do not amount to scientific evidence, Pam. Do you need a sample of what DOES constitute scientific evidence? Ok, here: Peer reviewed studies from credible sources, peer review articles in a credible journal, a cleaned dataset from a credible researcher, an analysis of a cleaned dataset from a credible researcher…
Just a few examples. But I assume, at this point, that you have none of those or anything like it… especially since you seem to not know what they are.
@PameAshley You are the one wasting your time. We will fight for the freedom to have bullies FOREVER and just because you THINK you know what you are talking about does not mean YOU are RIGHT!!!!! Just try and take away my bully from me and see what happens. You should do some HOMEWORK and then come back on here and post something that does not make you sound like a bigot!!!!!
@PameAshley @JoshLiddySwayLove Pam… 8 years of college, and I believe it is in the medical field, yet you refuse to provide any further information. Hmmmm… I am betting you are in the Psychology field…it is common knowledge that anyone that studies/practices has a condition/issues, or just needs receive more therapy than they give. This might explain your hell bent neurosis. If anyone here on this thread has a closed mind, it is YOU. Look in the mirror honey. A smile, and a positive affirmation, just might be the answer to your problems. Lastly, all your delusional warped out look on this breed is just that. But what is sad, is you really believe the lies you are reading, or being told. This just shows, YOU don’t know what you know. Do you have lineage with white supremacy groups? Just sayn.
@PameAshley I wouldn’t visit your FB page if it was the last social media networking site available to me.
YOU are the narrow minded, vengful seeking, HUMAN pit bull bent on destorying INNOCENT dogs and hurting INNOCENT families because you lost your dog.
I’m more sorry and heart sick for your dog than I am you right now. I’ll fight you tooth and nail before I let you take away my right to own a Bully breed.
You Pam Ashley are a very hateful, sick souled, excuse for a humanE being.
But you are more than welcome to visit my FB page, RESPONSIBLE DOG (Pit bull owners as well) are ‘freind’s’ and Supporters of this wonderful breed. You can find me using my email mtnlivin@gmail.com or my name, Kerri Baker. But I bet you won’t bother, since you are a HATE Monger. My dogs, Hoss & Maci also have their own FB page, but you’d not be welcome there, Their Pit Bulls.
@PameAshley
Pam………..you are so fuckin’ dumb. And you have a weird fascination with animal death. You are most likely religious an Republican. Yeah, I’m sure you stood around on your free time, helping to euthanize animals…….fuckin’ freak.
@PameAshley I never said you didn’t have a “horrible Pit Bull experience,” actually the opposite. I didn’t say any of the other stuff that you spout here either, never asked which shelter etc. You literally have no basis for anything, can’t engage, can’t debate, can’t anything. All you are good at is irrationally spewing your rage and hateful viewpoints, and then calling everyone else what you are. Goodbye, Pam. Have a nice life. Your words and choices speak for themselves.
@PameAshley Hahaha……open minded! You kill me Pam.
“If this did indeed happen”? Yes Pame, it did happen. Why would I waste my valuable time to post my comment otherwise? Surely this is a common enough occurrence in any dog park in North America for it to be credible. Dogs of any breed can fight from time to time for any number of reasons. Just like cats. Or horses. Or humans. Furthermore, I don’t, at any point in my personal account, ask or challenge you to defend weimaraners as a breed for something that can easily happen to the best of dogs under such excitable circumstances. ESPECIALLY mine. I can handle that on my own, thanks. I’m not going to take offense that you are trying to discredit me as an attention seeking liar in order to take away the validity of my experience by implying that I’m not, then or now, an owner of the breeds I claim. It happened exactly as I wrote it and I feel no need to convince you otherwise. What I do find quite interesting about your reply is that, once again, you have proven you don’t take the time to slow down, read and process the information in front of you. At no point in my post did I say I was a child at the time of the incident. Slow down and read it again. See? Get it now? Considering your reply, I have to wonder if you process all information this way or just that which makes you uncomfortable due to your own personal issues. I find it scary, to be quite frank, that you are employed as a person that is responsible for relaying valid and factual information to the general public. Through you, ignorance and sloppy research is being passed on to others, further separating them from truth, understanding and compassion. I pity you for being so consumed with grief that you feel as though your only peace will come from further destruction. That someone must pay. History has proven that ignorance compounded with hate and fear can be FAR more dangerous and destructive than the most vicious of animals and that’s exactly what you’re promoting. Perhaps you should spend more time and effort focusing on THAT problem and leave us, responsible pit bull owners and their families alone.
@RobinZ AMEN.
While I’ve been bitten by a pit bull, I’ve also been attacked by a golden retriever and other smaller breeds. Any dog can have people aggression problems, any dog can have dog/animal aggression problems. No matter the breed, they can all have their own issues. Working at an animal care facility I’ve seen many types of dogs come through our facility, especially the dogs that come through doggie daycare. Some of our huskies and labs can be just as aggressive/dominant with other dogs as you swear that pit bulls are and most of the pit bulls we have come through our facility are overly loving to the entire staff.
I read what Pam and Anthony both said and I can’t believe that they don’t see that everything they are accusing “pit bull defenders” of is precisely what they are doing. Their rationale has gone out the window. I wonder if they post on child abuse websites and protest to ban all people! Their ignorance and hypocrisy is astounding and that is putting it kindly. Going rounds with people like that who believe their emotions are facts gives me a headache. They are fine with killing thousands of innocent dogs and for the miniscule potential threat that ALL dogs pose, and in turn inflicting the same pain they felt on others…except this is worse. It’s a group of humans willingly and proudly wanting to kill innocent dogs minding their own business in their backyards. Great logic! Great solution! Actually, that mindset is more dangerous than any dog, any animal, anything! If you want to get technical, most “hazards” or “potential threats” have an idiotic human standin behind them . The human mind is far more dangerous than anything else in this world. I have to live with the fact that my fture children will grow up in a world with people like Pam and Anthony and minds alike. I’ll take pit bull any day!
[…] few days ago Pam Ashley came to my page and posted a comment in response to my open letter to her… I’ve since updated the original post with a handful of the most disagreeable dialogues […]
Pam: You call Tamie and Zach Williams from Canada your friends do you even know them or are you just using their story to further your agenda AND does anyone else find it strange that even though Pam decided to put her story and hateful jargon out in a public forum she now says she is tracking everyone who has disagreed with her – and I quote from a response to Traci Brunnemann here 12 hrs ago” I copy all names at the sites I visit in case any of your dogs are involved in an attack.” ???
I just want to say that I have a HUGE heart where bullies are concerned. I had a bully mix named Xena. I saved her from some very bad people that where abusing her when she was just a baby.We grew together as I was also young. She taught me things that can never be learned from another person. She brought me out of a very dark place with her kind eyes and the way she loved me even when I could not love myself. This dog saved my life!!!!! My sweet girl has passed and I will never forget the lessons that she taught me. She made me a better person. I now have another bully and it is always the same….kind eyes, total love, and the trust that she puts into me to know that I will DEFEND and PROTECT her with my LIFE!!!! To say that this breed must be wiped out is stupid and wrong. I know that facts and I know that EVERY dog can turn and bite but I also know that that little bully that I come home to every night is my BEST FRIEND and I will defend her to the death. Thank you Josh for everything that you do for this breed. Kara (my bully) and I are standing tall behind you!!!!
Always remember that ‘YOU CAN’T FIX STUPID”!!!!!!!
@AngieBaldwin absolutely awesome Angie! 🙂
And I love that you had to consult your psychologist friend about this! You must be a total control freak too.
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